Today on the blog, I interview my friend Dan Kimball. Kimball and I first met in person at George Fox Seminary, where we both spoke together. Before that, we got to know each other online, and he graciously interviewed me on the book Pagan Christianity. Dan has also kindly endorsed three of my books.
Here’s my interview with Dan.
1. How and when did you come to Christ?
I was approached by a Christian who was witnessing to people in a shopping mall when I was in junior high school. He wasn’t street preaching, but he was walking up to strangers and he came up to me and my friend Ralph and began asking us questions. I don’t remember too much of what he said but it rang true and I prayed with him to trust in Jesus as Savior. After I prayed with this guy, he gave me a “I’m Saved” button or sticker and then went off to evangelize others. I don’t know if I was saved at that moment, but it was the first time I ever heard that Jesus was Savior and He died on the cross for sin.
I had no church I was part of, so not too much changed in my life after that. I did find that I became sensitive to Christian things after that. Watching Billy Graham on television. Reading Christian tracts when I would be given one. But it wasn’t until I met Stuart Allen, a pastor in England after I graduated from college when I began to understand what it means to follow Jesus more. So it was more like when I was in my 20’s when I began realizing Jesus is Lord and what that meant for my life to follow Him.
2. Your book, THEY LOVE JESUS, BUT NOT THE CHURCH, has done really well. Why did you write it, what’s the main point, and what has been the most common response to it from readers?
I wrote it because I kept sensing a growing disconnect from the church and people outside the church. Especially in how those outside the church were defining “evangelical” and “Christian”. Most of their impressions and stereotypes of Christians were ones that felt we are all homophobic, right-winged politically, judgmental, organized religion and other negative characteristics. So I began exploring this and it turned out so many of those with these impressions, didn’t have actual relationships with Christians. They were mainly getting these stereotypes from the loudest Christian voices out there whom were more extreme in their views and attitudes.
I then began exploring Christians in churches and who they socially engage with and it was primarily all other Christians. I found that even in many churches who used the term “missional” this was the case as well. They were Christians who met in another church, then formed a new missional church because they didn’t like or fit in their previous church – but then they primarily socially engaged with each other. So we have all these non-Christians out there who gain their understanding of church and Christianity by the media and loudest voices while the Christians are all busy hanging out with each other in “community” all the time. It was quite fascinating seeing how much of a Christian bubble we created and how so many of us Christians remain in that Bubble socially and didn’t even realize it. So of course the world around us will develop these weird impressions of us because the loudest voices then defined “Christians”.
The response has been really great overall and it really connected with a lot of church leaders. So most of the response I have heard has been positive – except for a stream of thinking from some Christians who feel that we shouldn’t care what people outside the church think of us. There is a slice of Christians who take the position that Jesus told us that he world will hate us if we are Christians, so naturally we will be hated and not liked. So it can be an excuse and even self-verifying for some to feel satisfied when they aren’t liked by non-Christians feeling that they are then fulfilling what Jesus said would happen. But the problem with that viewpoint, is that Jesus was not talking about not being liked or hated for so much of the issues are people have with Christians. It is mainly our attitudes and how we present and talk about things. It is more of a lack of Galatians 5 fruits of the Spirit why many don’t like some Christians.
3. What are you most passionate about – what drives you?
What drives me is knowing how Jesus changed my life and has changed other lives. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life. So what drives me is to do whatever it possibly takes to see other come to understand who Jesus is and to not simply become a “convert” but a disciple who joins the mission of Jesus as they follow Him. There is a difference between a “convert” who holds their hand up in a moment to make a decision and someone who puts saving faith in Jesus, but then in community growing in their love and knowledge of Him. And as they follow Him and the Spirit changes, strengthens and shapes them as they join in on mission.
I am also passionate about remaining pure to orthodox historical theology however being innovative and leading the church towards change for sake of this mission. Not compromising Scripture, but we have a lot of freedom in how we go about the mission of Jesus and what our churches may look like and function like. So I am passionate to see people understand this and that God gifted them for serving the world on mission.
4. What puzzles you the most about the Christian faith?
- Why some Christians who know Scripture and say they follow Jesus become mean Christians.
- Why some Christians are passive and consumers instead of joining in on mission to the world around them.
- Why some who say they are missional don’t have making new disciples from those who don’t know Jesus yet as a major part of what they do, blog about and share stories about.
- Why there is evil and suffering to the extent there is (I know the correct apologetical answers and even teach on it, but it is such a tough thing to still comprehend).
- Why Frank Viola won’t admit that churches whom are intentional about it can be large and structured and still function to produce healthy, vibrant disciples of Jesus.
- Why Frank Viola won’t grow his hair out on the sides and comb it upward to try and have a hairstyle like me. The higher the hair the closer to God.
5. Who are the 5 people who have influenced your life and ministry the most, and how have they influenced you?
It’s an interesting question, as I have many people who influenced me throughout my life which in turn influences the ministry I am in. I have had bands influence me. Not Christian bands, but secular bands like The Clash, Bruce Springsteen, Pink Floyd, Elvis Presley and U2. Films influenced my life like The Elephant Man, Awakenings, Eraserhead and others (which I would have to explain why and how, especially Eraserhead!). I have had friends throughout various time periods in my life influence me during my college years in particular. I have had writers influence me such as Marvel and DC comic book writers when I was a kid, to classics authors like JD Sallinger, CS Lewis and Tolkien. Dallas Willard, Bill Hybels and even Frank Viola writings have influenced me greatly.
Artists influenced me like Ralph Steadman, Mike Ploog, and Will Eisner. So it’s hard to name specific ones as I believe God has used all types of people, authors, films to majorly influence how I ended up turning out and how I view life and how I then function in ministry. I can’t state strongly enough how these various influencers impact me in thinking and viewing the world, which in turn does impact how I serve in ministry today and think. And of course The Bible is my major influence of which I now screen all these other life experiences. But when you ask “who are 5 people who influenced your life and ministry?” the normal answers are the ones I will now list here, but we are shaped in many ways by other factors which come to mind as you ask me that question. But in terms of specific people I had relationships with, about a couple of them are:
1) Stuart Allen: He was 82 years old when I met him. I was living in London playing in a punk/rockabilly band there at the time. Stuart was a pastor of a very small elderly church. By chance (or I should say it was God guiding me) I saw that his church had a Bible study that I ended up going to for a year while I lived there. Stuart was intelligent, allowed me to ask questions and never made me feel dumb. He never judged me for my haircut or my clothing. He influenced me in realizing you could be intelligent and be a Christian. He stirred a passion in my to know and study Scripture.
2) Dr. Mitchell: When I went to Multnomah Seminary in Portland, Dr. Mitchell was 92 years old and would meet with me while I was a student there. He was so passionate about prayer and being intimate with Jesus. When he prayed it felt like he was speaking to a dear, dear friend he knew so well. So he encouraged me to not settle for a shallow relationship with Jesus but one of depth. He also was passionate about sharing Jesus with others and had crazy stories of being in canoes to go preach to people in remotes places and other adventures of his missionary mindset.
3) Rod Clendenen: He was 65 years old when I met him. He mentored me and met with me weekly and we studied Scripture and prayed together. Rod influenced me to worship God all day and practice His presence all day long.
4 and 5) My Mom and Dad: I was so fortunate to grow up in a home where my parents were wonderful examples of loving each other and set a caring home to grow up in. It wasn’t a Christian home (although both my mom and dad became Christians later in life). But they influenced me to understand the love of a Father, the love of a mother, the importance of a home of safety and care. And to this day their influence has shaped me in incredible ways which impacts almost everything I do.
6. What do you hope to accomplish on this earth? What are your ministry goals? Be specific as possible.
Foremost, what I hope to accomplish here on earth is to live my life holistically as a worshiper of Jesus, stewarding and using the gifts God gave me on mission. So that when I one day meet Him face to face He will say “Well done good and faithful servant”. This includes everything, how I live as a husband, father, church leader, friend, living in a local town, living in the world. I try not to compartmentalize my life but see it holistically so as I live as a worshiper on mission – it is everything I do. So that is goal overriding everything – to steward my life in a way that is honorable and pleasing to God on mission with the time He gives me here.
In terms of ministry goals – bottom-line, is to see as many people as possible come to a saving knowledge of who Jesus is and put faith in Him and then grow and thrive as a disciple serving Jesus on mission with their lives. This involves challenging church leaders to rethink their roles in the church towards this. This involves people of the church being trained and motivated towards this mission. This involves me living this out personally.
7. Are you working on any future books? If so, tell us about it.
I’ve been working on the same book for 3 years. It is tough for me to write, because it is wonderfully consuming leading a missional church plant now 5 years old as well as being a dad and husband. And I am working on a doctorate degree. So my priorities and time unfortunately push book writing to a slower pace. But I have signed for several more books with Zondervan. My next two books are trade books which are books written for the average person. All my books so far have been church leadership books. The first one is a follow-up book to They Like Jesus But Not The Church addressing the same issues, but more of an apologetics book for the average person to think through some of the primary issues we need to wrestle through in our culture. We are still determining a title.
Toying with a title something like “Adventures in Churchland” but the sub-title may be something like “Discovering why Christianity is not judgmental-homophobic-male dominated-fundamentalist-organized religion”. It’s a hopeful and positive book for both Christians and those wondering about Christianity and church. It really is an apologetic for the church, the Bride of Christ and why the church despite our faults is an essential part of what it means to exist as a follower of Jesus. Why we need the church and the church needs us.
The book after that is one based on a teaching series we did at our church that was called “Don’t be a “Christian”: Exchanging Religion for the Mission of God”. I don’t know think that will be the actual book title, but it is an exploration and rally cry for people to break out of consumerism into full sacrificial lifestyle worship. To exchange “going to church” to instead “being the church”. To exchange living in the Christian sub-culture to being in the world on mission. To become a theologian rather than closing our minds or numbing our minds with suturing them with entertainment. So I really look forward to writing this one.
Then I am going to write a biography of Frank Viola. That book will sell more than Blue Like Jazz and The Shack combined. A movie will be made about it. Bruce Willis will star as Frank Viola. It is going to be great!
Hey Dan. I enjoyed your answers and appreciate you taking the time to visit us on the blog today. I didn’t know “the higher the hair, the closer to God.” So I’ll have to work on your suggestion about the comb-over. T’will be a challenge fo sho though … I have to buy a comb for starters
By the way, I readily affirm that people can certainly grow as followers of Jesus in the institutional church. Never questioned that. However, what I challenge in my work is whether a group of believers has been *equipped* in the institutional church system to live by the indwelling life of Christ, to meet together under Christ’s headship and to display the riches of Christ together in an edifying and orderly fashion without a clergyman present, and to take care of one another as a community without a professional minister involved. Therefore, the challenge I’ve given to pastors in “Finding Organic Church” to do what Paul of Tarsus did when he planted and equipped a church has yet to be taken up by any modern pastor to date. On the other hand, many have been honest in admitting that their congregations would disintegrate pretty quickly if they tried it, thus revealing the lack of full “equipping” that often goes on in that system. In addition, a number of pastors have admitted to me that they don’t even know what it means to live by an indwelling Lord or how to do it (something rather basic to the Christian life).
Oh, I’m not sure how I feel about Bruce Willis playing me. I mean, he’s got the facial look down pretty well, but the body doesn’t quite represent mine. Can we have Vin Diesel do all the body shots?
Premium article, amazing looking blog, added it to my favs!
Enjoyed the read from Dan Kimble. As for a traditional church imploding without a pastor to lead, likely. It seems more likely, the organization of church will be grown upward as opposed to downward. ie. Growth in a collective of home churches with the traveling missionary. Have enjoyed Viola’s books. Have hopes of putting into practice.
God bless,
archie
Thanks 37, though as I’ve often stated, I’m really not an advocate of “home church”, but rather *the organic expression of the church*. Huge difference in most cases. There’s nothing magical about meeting in a home.
Great interview. I hadn’t heard him explain the story behind “They Love Jesus…” quite like that before. I stumbled across Dan a few years ago when I was looking for people who were looking at church and Christianity differently than most of America. It was actually his interview of you for PC that led me to read your stuff.
>>It was actually his interview of you for PC that led me to read your stuff. >>
Really? Wow. Amazing. I guess I’ll have to send flowers to Danny a.k.a. Lemon Jelly
Frank, thanks for the interview of Dan Kimball. I’ve read some of his stuff and I’ve read stuff written about him. This interview allowed me a peak into his heart which means a lot. We can all find room for disagreement, but I’m getting to the point as a follower of Jesus to look for points of commonality with fellow believers. None of us have it all figured out. We’re all on a journey and I believe that many of us, including Dan, have a heart for being obedient to our Lord Jesus.
P.S. You’re right about nothing magical about meeting in a home. I have a passion to see every member raised up in a fully functioning capacity.
Thank you for the interview. I just want to clarify some things:
Dan says:
Institutional church can produce healthy and vibrant disciples of Christ
You (Frank) challenge whether followers of Christ have been “*equipped* in the institutional church system to live by the indwelling life of Christ, to meet together under Christ’s headship and to display the riches of Christ together in an edifying and orderly fashion without a clergyman present, and to take care of one another as a community without a professional minister involved”
I wonder about the meaning of a disciple of Christ who is healthy and vibrant but no life of Christ in them so they do not display Christ together…
This is my humble opinion: could there be that whatever shortcomings the ‘institutional’ church has we need to realize that:
a) there are many types and shapes. Some even say that they are in between institutional and house (www.comchurch.com) and maybe in any of them you can find many types of Christians (Rev 2,3)
b) we need to take one issue at at time: what is a disciple? what is a professional minister? (was there any in the NT?)… That can help us understand the whole picture.
c) God is still lovingly working through us in our ignorance. For instance, once big issue in the ‘vibrant’ community of believers is ‘performance’ vs relationship.
Hector, right. A “disciple” in the NT sense does all the things I’ve stated above. The NT knows nothing of a disciple who lives as an individual outside of a community of Christians who have a shared life together, who are exploring the riches of Christ together, and who are learning to live by His indwelling life together. As I’ve pointed out in “Reimagining Church,” whenever we remove the Christian from his/her natural habitat, spiritual depth and maturity suffers loss. The issue is returning to the Christian’s native habitat, the environment in which we were designed by God to live, breathe, and have our being. It baffles me why so many believers are willing to settle for what God uses instead of what He has ordained and revealed in His Word concerning the church. The result: the good becomes the enemy of the best, and God’s dream stays unfulfilled.
Hi, Frank,
Basically what you’re saying is that professional ministers fail to equip the saints in the institutional church due to the system and stunt their growth. They fail to equip the saints to be led by the Spirit or as you put in “to live by the indwelling life of Christ”. Due to failing to live by the indwelling life of Christ they are unable or not equip “to meet together under Christ’s headship and to display the riches of Christ together in an edifying and orderly fashion without a clergyman present”. And fail to take care of one another due to their dependency on the professional minister.
The remedy to this is we as believers come together in a number that enables all who are present to function together as equals with their different gifting and different functions. As disciples they have learned to be taught by the Spirit and are therefore, Spirit led believers knowing how to hear from the Lord on their own or in a meeting, and minister to one another out of love being led by the Spirit. This results in ministering and sharing with one another as they are led by the Spirit in the things we say and do for one another. This experience should be the normal and natural experience of every born again believer who has counted the true cost of be a disciple. Your term is “organic”, but it is the natural expression of the Spirit-filled and led life.
Do I understand you correctly? And am I saying what you are saying in my terminology?
Thanks and God Bless,
His nothing,
Jeff
Jeff, yes and no. The remedy is for the saints to be equipped properly by those who know how to bring them into the fullness of Christ and then leave the church to the headship of Christ. that’s the missing ingredient in many places today. I discuss this in depthly and from the NT in my book FINDING ORGANIC CHURCH. It explores how churches were planted and equipped in the NT and God has never changed the principle.
Just wanted to add my thoughts and experiences on the “growing as followers of Jesus in the institutional church thing”–It has been my experience that some people are gonna grow more naturally than others. I was one of those people.
There are always the weak and the strong, neither is better than the other but both are in desperate need of each other.
I was a pastor for a number of years and I began to seriously question our way of doing things….then something hit me–Even though I could grow to this point within the system it was apparent that others couldn’t. I knew that Love would want me to promote what is best for EVERYONE. I knew that I indeed loved these people who were floundering in the cracks of “our” system and with that knowledge came a responsibility!
After leaving the institutional church I soon realized that I too had been limited in growth by the system! While I had certainly grown rapidly at first–I had hit an unknown wall.
I began to really understand what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. When you treat prophesies with contempt–when you don’t test everything holding on to the good–you begin to put out the Spirit’s fire. Continued growth is then limited. We then fool ourselves into believing that intellectual stimulation is true Spiritual growth.
Thank you Frank. One of the big issues you brought up is that not everybody seems to grasp what He has ordained and revealed in His Word concerning the church. As far as I can see, the second one is about really thirsting for the living God: a revelation of Jesus Christ.
I’m sure this isn’t always the case, but it’s been my experience that smaller, more intimate settings–whether “organic” or not–do allow for more functioning of each member.
When I was a kid, most of the church was frequently gathered at our house. Not for religious services, but for social things. Lots of stuff happened during this time–eating together, playing together, planning stuff to help one another and others, planning mission trips together, sharing troubles and joys. So, not up to spec as far as the ideal for organic church, but I would absolutely say it was better than sitting on a pew. We religiously sat in pews every Sunday, but I wonder if the real church didn’t happen more in our house.
Second experience: church in a small town in the parsonage. The chairs were set up in rows and we listened to a sermon, but we all felt welcome to ask a question or add a comment (even a long comment) and interrupt the pastor if we had something to say. It happened often–usually multiple times every service. Again, not fully organic by any stretch, but once we moved into a “real church,” it was something to look back on fondly. Things were never the same after that.
So I’d have to say that in both of my experiences, there was something about being in a house that did make things different. It’s not enough, and I suppose in the wrong hands it could be amazingly bad, but my experiences were good. Not as good as what our group is growing into now, but far better than church in a theater.
I know exactly what you are saying cindyinsd. All my real growth has been in something less institutional than ‘Sunday morning church.” If the more something is on the organic end of the spectrum, the better it is, and the more institutional the worse, doesn’t that unmistakenly say something to us? So many Christians confirm this when you hear their testimony — people with no knowledge of or desire to push ‘organic church.’ Yet people still want to defend institutional ‘church’ to the death, because it might do a bit of good here and there. Because it might be theoretically possible (in an alternate universe) to reform it!
I have to completely agree with you Frank–but do you ever grow weary of trying to explain it to people?
Mike … sometimes, yes
The biggest frustration I have is that some folks will read only one book of mine, and not read anything else, so they will form their own conclusions based on that one volume. The problem is that most of my books are not stand-alones; they are part of a larger body of work. So each volume is incomplete in itself (that’s especially true for “Pagan Christianity”). So unless one reads the whole series, they will walk away with an incomplete picture and wrong conclusions. N.T. Wright, who is also someone who is turning the sod on some important subjects, once said something like, “You can’t understand what I’m saying now unless you’ve read what I’ve said previous to it.” He meets the same sort of frustration. I think this is common for authors who are producing a body of work that hopefully will elicit massive changes in both mindset and practice.
I understand–I sometimes meet the same frustrations on a smaller scale