David Murrow is the author of Why Men Hate Going to Church
I found the book to be fascinating. In the organic missional churches that I work with, the numbers look very different from what they do in the typical institutional church. Men on average make up 60-65%; women 35-40%. In the typical institutional church, the women outweigh the men by far.
Interestingly, I’ve seen women visit these organic missional churches and weep because there are so many men who are excited about Jesus Christ and functioning together. They testify that they rarely see this in the traditional churches they have been part of. (Note: When I say “organic church,” I’m not talking about the typical house church.)
In addition, the women in body life have a very high place. They are honored by the men, and they function on equal footing.
One of the reasons for this, I believe, is that in organic church life, everyone participates in the ministry and the decision-making. Everyone functions. So men have a strong place in finding the Lord’s mind and executing it. And the women have an equally strong place in both direction and ministry. (If you’re new to this blog and you’re new to my work, I outline the biblical principles for this in my book, Reimagining Church. The book also answers every conceivable objection to what the New Testament teaches on the subject, which is often missed or ignored.)
All told: Body life is exciting. And sometimes it’s high drama. Thus women and men love it once they’ve tasted the real thing.
I had the opportunity to interview David about his book. Here it is.
What motivated you to write this book?
My background is advertising, so my world is all about “target audiences.” I can tell instantly when an ad is targeted at men or women.
So one day I was sitting in church and a question popped into my head: What’s the target audience of my church? I looked around and saw that almost 2/3 of the adults were female; primarily middle-aged, married women. The sanctuary was decorated with quilts, banners, flowers and ribbons. The pastor was wearing a robe and stole. The words coming out of his mouth were “relationship, healing, community, harmony, etc.” He described the gospel as “a personal relationship with a man who loves you.” Women led almost every ministry program, most of which were oriented toward women and children. The songs had a soft, breathy feel to them, and could, with a few words changed, be top-40 love songs.
So in a moment of clarity, I realized that almost everything about my church was female-oriented. The décor, the music, the language, the behaviors, the ministries, etc. In short, women were the target audience of my church.
I expected to find a book on the subject but none had been written. So I heard a voice in my head saying, “You write it.” The rest is history.
What are the top 5 reasons why many men hate going to church as we know it?
- Men believe that church-going is not acceptable manly behavior. It’s for women, weirdoes and wimps. This is why even church-going men hide their faith from their friends and associates. They are not ashamed of Christ; they are ashamed of being perceived as unmanly.
- Men feel like church is a waste of their time. The ROI just isn’t there.
- Christian culture has slowly feminized over time, driving masculine men out.
- In the church power flows to men who are verbal, sensitive, musical or studious (i.e. pastors and music leaders). If a man lacks these gifts, he may feel like he has nothing to offer.
- There are more women than men who are verbal, sensitive, musical or studious. Therefore, we find more women in church. It’s a simple numbers game.
I thought your chapter called “Every man needs a band of brothers” to be one of the best. In fact, some of the men in one of the organic missional churches I work with wrote a song called “Band of Brothers” that the men like to sing together sometimes. I’ll post the lyrics at the end of this interview.
If you look at the films men love, they’re often about a band of brothers who come together to do something courageous and dangerous. This is every man’s fantasy. Jesus modeled this with the twelve. Yet in today’s church it’s very hard for men to find true brotherhood because our small groups are mainly Bible studies. They are utterly predictable and unadventurous.
What has the reaction been from male readers since you wrote the book?
I have some very vocal fans. I get e-mail all the time from men thanking me for identifying this problem. A common refrain: “You hit the nail on the head. I love the Lord but don’t really like church. I’ve felt this way for a long time but I couldn’t put my finger on what was wrong.”
On the other hand, Christian men are so polite they rarely oppose me directly. So imagine my surprise when I was the target of a scathing article in Christianity Today. They accused me of theological error and of trying to make Jesus “macho,” which of course I’m not trying to do. The Christ of Scripture is plenty manly; I’m simply trying to remove the feminine cloth we’ve wrapped him in over the past 150 years.
I believe there are a lot of men heavily invested in the status quo. They like the feminine church and any attempt to bring men back threatens to upset their apple cart. I’d say there are a few pastors who simply have no interest in ministering to men; they mistrust men and prefer the company of women. That may even be why they chose the pastorate: they knew they would rarely have to deal with men.
What has the reaction been from female readers?
Other than a few knee-jerk feminists, women are very supportive. Every Christian woman is praying for at least one man to come to Christ. Women are sick of going to church alone. Women are distraught when their sons drop out of church during their teens and twenties. These women are tough enough to hear the truth.
I love the front cover picture where you have a man sleeping in a pew. As I travel and speak in conferences, as well as read my mail, many men are bored with church as we know it. (This is is also true for many women by the way.) Why do you think that so many contemporary pastors still aren’t getting this point? (Many of the 1700 pastors who leave the pastorate per month in the U.S. get it. But many still do not.)
It’s fear, pure and simple.
Think of the local church as a ship. The captain is likely to be male, but his officers and crew will be primarily female. The composition of the crew has a profound effect on the captain. If he wants the ship to run smoothly, he must be able to please and motivate women. Clergymen learn early in their careers: if Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. Should the skipper run afoul of certain powerful women, he’ll have a mutiny on his hands. The ministry engines will sputter and die.
Every little change in a church causes at least a few crew members to become angry. Some even jump ship. So the pastor must calculate the number of crew members he’s willing to lose. Changing a thoroughly feminized institution into one that attracts men would require many changes.
In the end, it’s often simpler for pastors to endure the status quo than to start a mutiny.
One of the premier quotes in my book Pagan Christianity is by Upton Sinclair. He wrote: ”It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” I’ve had many pastors admit this very thing to me.
As one who has written controversial books which challenge the status quo and seek to bring us back to New Testament teaching, I’m curious to know what the worst letter or email was that you received in response to the book.
I’ve been accused by many of being sexist. These letters usually come from women who have been hurt by men. They see male oppression everywhere. And they have bought into the line, “The church is a male-dominated, patriarchal institution.” This is their worldview, and any thinking that contradicts that view is a threat.
So when I suggest that we need more men in church, they blow up in anger. I get long, single-spaced e-mails, detailing all the sins of men. How they have led the church into the crusades, the witch trials, etc. They think I’m advocating an abusive, “submit to me woman” style of Christianity where men are kings and women are crushed underfoot. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
The section, “The Straws that Break Men’s Hearts” was very intriguing. Can you sum up your main points in it?
Like a glove that slowly conforms to the hand of its wearer, church culture has slowly conformed to the needs and expectations of its most important demographic group – married, middle-aged women. They do most of the giving, volunteering and product buying, so we do subtle things to keep them involved.
As a result, churches, Christian businesses and institutions all conform to the sensibilities of this important woman. That’s why many churches are decorated like ladies’ parlors; why we use feminine language in church; why we sing “love songs to Jesus,” why we’re always expected to be calm and polite. Men feel like Tom Sawyer in Aunt Polly’s parlor. They can’t be men because the culture is built around the middle-age married woman.
The back cover picture is priceless. Please describe it to our readers and let them know that you’re wanting to convey through it.
It’s a shot of a man in church. He’s nervously looking at the woman next to him who’s lost in a “worship coma,” hands outstretched, singing with all her heart. His look either says, “Get me out of here,” or maybe it says, “Why don’t I feel the way she does? Is there something wrong with me?”
Click Why Men Hate Going to Church
Band of Brothers (lyrics)
We are a band of brothers
His holy ones are we
Pursuing our Lord Jesus Christ
With purchased liberty
And Oh for what grand purpose
And Oh for what great call
Have we the saints come gathered here?
To love the All in All!
Chorus
Hurrah! Hurrah! We love you Lord, Hurrah!
Hurrah for our Lord Jesus Christ who is the All in All! (2x)
His call came Oh so sweetly
His voice so deep within
For we the saints to gather here
His romance to begin
Living stones together
A spiritual house to be
Offering up, exchanging love
To Christ the King of Kings
Chorus
Hurrah! Hurrah! We love you Lord, Hurrah!
Hurrah for our Lord Jesus Christ who is the All in All! (2x)
The Living Stone we’ve come to
So precious Oh is He
Declaring all His praises
His people called to be
And when our lives are questioned
Our answer they shall see
Displaying our Lord Jesus Christ
For them to find as we
This pretty much sums it up:
http://www.baekdal.com/design/the-saga-of-biorn/
My hubby could benefit from a Band of Brothers – but never had such a thing in the institution or outside of it.
We were “born again” outside of the church institution, then for 30+ years were faithful in the non-denominational, charismatic institutional church. We enjoyed it and faithfully attended, tithed, gave beyond tithes (because we love to give – later it was because we tied our blessings to it, but that’s another story), he helped with construction and building projects, while I helped by teaching and counseling others. We both served as elders for quite a while.
Long story on the why …… but, we had an “Awakening to Truth” and knew we were being released from the church as we had known it. That was a little over 3 years now. Over the years I had initiated a lot regarding “spiritual things”, so I decided to leave it up to my husband to guide us to our next place.
It’s been over 3 years and he doesn’t seem interested in connecting anywhere. Even though we’ve made many “Kingdom” connections, there is no one/place where we fellowship. In other words, we don’t go anywhere on any regular basis.
I don’t miss attending “church services”, but I do need to connections. I enjoy reading, research and Bible study, so I fellowship with a few of my girlfriends, when I have the time, because I seek that out. However, it seems that my husband doesn’t desire that as much as I do, since he doesn’t enjoy reading, studying or discussing things like I do. I’ve come to appreciate who he is and not what I wanted him to be, so this doesn’t bother me anymore. He is a wonderful man who is faithful, honest, generous, hard working and he loves me unconditionally!
We have traveled to various conferences, and he does enjoy the worship experience and messages. We did a lot traveling to conferences when we left the institution, since we didn’t have to be at our local church to serve on Sunday’s. We experienced so much during that season, but we’re not doing much of that anymore. During the past year our business has required a little more attention, so we don’t have the time to be away so often. The only close guy friend’s he has is our adult son and my brother. Our business and golf keep them all connected.
Since we left the institution, we’ve both had to “detox” and allow God to burn some sacred cows that we once worshiped. I had to get delivered from a lot of Pharisaical thinking (I didn’t know how much deliverance I needed, since I thought I was more spiritual than my husband .. oh my, it makes me nauseous just to realize how religious I was).
I do believe we have become closer to Jesus and our marriage of almost 36 years is better than ever. I’m hoping we can connect with other believers soon and “do life together”, and he agrees that would be nice. We’ve talked about having people in our home … but he doesn’t want to be stuck with people coming over that don’t know when to go home (if you know what I mean).
Since we have our own business, it is pretty demanding for us both, and since he works very hard and long hours during the week and for now he enjoys relaxing by playing golf on most Sundays. I might spend that time reading or watching a webcast, then later on I might share something the Lord has shown me and we discuss the spiritual journey we are on.
A few years back I would have thought we were backsliding, if we chose to do something else instead of “going to church.” Currently, I’m enjoying the freedom in Christ and trusting Him to guide our steps and place us in the Body of Christ as He desires. I just don’t think either of us would be comfortable going back to doing “church as usual” .. that seems like bondage to me. However, I realize we are not supposed to be “lone rangers”. Praying that He will show us both where and how to become “aligned” in this season.
Anyone have any insight or counsel to share, I would appreciate it!
By the way …. being a business woman who appreciates the “bottom line”, I’m sorry if I’ve bored anyone with my rambling. At least it isn’t all “single-spaced”.
Thanks for the interview with Murrow. His message is definitely one I wish more would take seriously. It’s one thing if men are not participating in church because they reject the gospel as a whole. It’s another thing when the church is doing things whether knowingly or unknowingly that alienate even men who are followers of Christ or are open minded to following him.
As far as the Jesus is my boyfriend type songs, I have to say that I’m a woman, and those kinds of songs have always made me feel uncomfortable. But truth be told, these kinds of songs were song often at the house church I was a part of. Songs that were very sensual about Jesus and the church. I couldn’t bring myself to sing some of the lines, and I know they made some of the men feel uncomfortable as well. Organic churches will need to watch out for this as well, because this will be a stumbling block for some.
HCG: Thanks. See my comment above on this. There’s a big difference between mushy gushy “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs which are individualistic and songs that capture the corporate romance between Christ and the church and speaks of His love for us and our love for Him. Some of the latter are amazing.
Very intriguing – he has lots of good points, and of course, organic is the answer to the problem. However, I am interested in your take, Frank, on the too many ‘love songs to Jesus’ part of his concept. Most of the new songs that have come out of the organic churches definitely fall into that category and take it to new levels — emphasizing the Bride singing to the Lord even more. The song you posted, Band of Brothers, has parts like that too.
The men in organic churches don’t seem to have a problem with this, in spite of them being in the majority. So is this something so-called ‘masculine men’ just need to get over? Is it a cultural thing, and do we need to be sensitive to that? Or is it a sign that believers don’t have a revelation of the Lord’s love and relationship with us? Seems that most of the love songs and poems of history, religious or not, have been written by men, so I’m not understanding what the problem is.
Also there was a time when every educated man was expected to be comfortable with speech and debate, and at least somewhat knowledgeable about music and poetry — there was none of this nonsense that that isn’t manly. But again, if that has changed, should we be sensitive of that? Are we supposed to have more strong vigorous tunes, instead of soft, intimate ones? I’m interested in more male perspectives on this from those with experience in organic church.
Ang: The “love songs” he’s talking about in the institutional church are the shallow, mushy, sentimental, “Jesus is my boyfriend” type songs. They don’t appeal to me and many other men (and no doubt many women). By contrast, the songs I’m familiar with in the organic churches I’ve been involved in and work with have great depth and touch the reality of expressing our love for Christ.
As an aside, I have seen in *some* groups outside the institutional church an exclusive fascination with 1/4 of the eternal purpose – the bride of Christ. This is to the neglect of the house of God, the family of God, and the body of Christ. All 4 are aspects of God’s eternal purpose are necessary, and Christ should be the mainstay and focus of our singing. I discuss this in the chapter on music in “Finding Organic Church” as it’s very important to me.
We will not go back to church. We love the freedom we have. The revelations do not come until after you have left. If he says to go. -go and he will give you grace and insight after you do it. Enjoy the freeeeeeedom.
I’m always just a wee bit uncomfortable placing things ‘divine’ into a world view of ‘target audience’ and especially so when we get into the male/female context. Nonetheless, a very real issue presents itself and perhaps a ‘female’ church is one variation of a deeper issue.
Bottom line is that an increasing segment of dedicated Christ-followers can no longer ‘play the game’ as represented by the institutional church. In fact, we believe that it’s far more life and death than what we see on Sundays.
God is at work, calling His people to a deeper, more vibrant relationship with Him. In that relationship we find the abundant life.
The very fact that David Murrow can point out the target audience of professional clergy shows that the whole system is just a business to profit the paid clergy. The irony is that studies have shown that mothers who bring their children to church only have a 2% success rate of their kids taking faith in Christ personally. Whereas fathers who bring their kids have a 43% success rate. If the business really thought through their business model, they would target the men and not the women, for that would insure a long term success strategy.
Ross: It’s an old soldier tune – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2F-drjUwNU&feature=related
Electric when a bunch of men who are passionate about their Lord sing it together with the upgraded lyrics.
I love the focus of this article and agree with the comments. I don’t have anything salient to add other than kudos, thanks for bringing up the subject.
I want to change the subject just a bit; but hopefully not get the discussion off track. Organic/simple/house church expressions need their own music. You have just given us what I suspect is an example of good music coming out of our spiritual environment. These are great lyrics. Where do we get the actual music so that this song can begin to spread virally?
Definitely agree with David Murrow and his ideas of men and church…AND his statement that many women (and may I add children) are bored with church too. I think many women stick with it longer because they are more geared to social events, planning activities, hostessing, which is what much of insitutional church has evolved into…a crammed calendar to multi-task!
Could it also be that men see pastors (in the traditional sense) as another boss that they have to answer to? Another superior giving them a list of demands and to-dos?
My experience in the institutional church was that men were bored because there was no empowerment to do anything. Everything had to go through a pastor-may-I process, and often the response was no, or maybe that a committee should review the request, or maybe that a particular pastor should handle it.
In organic church, there are endless opportunities to share of Christ in meetings (by men and women), to share ideas, and to work together to make things happen.
The root problem, to me, isn’t the pastor or the man (or the woman), but the church system in which they are all trying to live.
Great questions, Steve! And an interesting interview all-round, thank you Frank and David. I was chatting about this with a couple of friends the other day, about how most activities that our church does are more female-friendly.
We wondered what male-friendly activities would look like within our context of an institutional but quite forward-thinking and participative church. A regular evening at the pub where people can talk about whatever, expecially God / life / deeper meaning stuff? Community projects like litter-picks? A guy at my church is really keen to develop some things and I think he’s on to something. Having read this interview, I shall arrange to meet up with him!
Even though men (and many women) hate going to status quo churches, most people will say that they want to go to Heaven. So deep within us, there must be the idea that Heaven will be exciting and fulfilling and not too much like traditional Sunday church meetings (at least a lot better than Hell).
So why do we settle for boredom in church meetings on Earth when we expect (or at least hope for) more out of Heaven? Wouldn’t it be great to see God’s kingdom come in Sunday morning meetings? Organic church lets that happen by removing Holy Spirit quenchers and letting the Spirit lead.
Good points! I believe wholeheartedly that so many institutional churches (the worship, preaching and activities) are geared toward women and I agree that many Christian men are emasculated through it.