I’ve always wanted to use a Kevin Trudeau-ish headline. And today’s post fit the bill.
Obamacare – the word evokes high-octane emotions on both sides. Since the recent Supreme Court ruling, some Americans are spitting fire because they are so angry.
Others are celebrating.
What should we as Jesus followers make of it? More importantly, is there another way to manage healthcare separate from the traditional models . . . one that few of us may know about?
Regardless of your feelings on Obamacare, you ought to be educated on a new healthcare alternative. My good friend Tony Dale will tell you all about it in a new interview I conducted with him recently.
Tony was a medical doctor in the UK. I know him well and trust him implicitly. Here’s the interview.
Tony, I understand that you are working on a way for Christians to massively reduce their costs for health insurance? Is that really possible?
Tony Dale: Yes, this is possible, but it does involve thinking outside of the “insurance” box! There are very large and very effective Christian medical cost sharing programs that are helping tens of thousands of Christians handle medical bills in a Biblical fashion, by literally sharing the medical costs in an organized fashion.
We have designed a program, The Health Co-Op, to work alongside the best of these approaches and to provide a comprehensive solution to the many challenges within the health care world.
Why do you believe it’s important for Christians to have their own system for dealing with medical bill costs?
Tony Dale: Medical costs account for 20 % of the typical household’s budget. You may not see this directly because the cost may be paid by your employer. But the money is being spent on your behalf, and so does not show up in your salary.
Christians have both a stewardship responsibility and a moral obligation to see that their financial resources are being used in a way that is consistent with our Biblical values. Current insurance plans force us to share in and to effectively subsidize other people’s poor lifestyle decisions that lead to things such as abortions.
This clearly violates our conscience and desire to promote life. When there are good alternatives to insurance available, we have to ask ourselves why we are participating in a system that undermines many of our core values.
Can we really trust something as important as our health and the massive costs associated with health care to a system like you’re describing?
Tony Dale: The things I am describing are well tried and tested. My own company has been around for 15 years, and has handled hundreds of millions of dollars of medical bill negotiations and mediation. We work with very large Christian medical sharing programs with more than 20 years’ experience in this field, and with tens of thousands of members.
I can see how this will help people without insurance, but what about those who already have good quality insurance in place?
Tony Dale: Unfortunately, health insurance now-a-days is anything but insurance! Instead it has become a political and economic tool to control the health care delivery system in this country. Representing, as it does, 20% of the nation’s economy, there are massive vested interests that want to control this money, and in the process effectively control all of us.
The fact that any one of us may have good insurance cover in place effectively blinds us to the impact this has on our personal finances, and the lack of control that it leads to for both health care choices and our own personal economic situation.
Because health insurance is so closely tied to employment, most employed people have virtually no choice and no control over what is happening to 20% of their potential income. By exploring the quality alternatives now available to Christians outside of the health insurance environment, we regain control in these vital areas.
With Obamacare passing via the Supreme Court ruling, how would your program benefit those who are against Obamacare. And how would it benefit those who are for it?
Tony Dale: This is an important question, because there is an assumption in some quarters that all Christians are against Obamacare. That is certainly not the case. This is not the place for me to get into political issues, but it is vital to understand that Obamacare is a genuine attempt to provide health care for everyone in this country and to do so in a way where access to care is not predicated on the patient’s ability to pay. These are laudable, but extremely difficult goals to accomplish.
For those interested to explore an in depth analysis of the policy and economic issues involved in solving these challenges, I know of no better place to point you than to John Goodman of the National Center For Policy Analysis and his comments at this link. The reason why our program in The Health Co-Op is ideal for Christians on both sides of this political debate is that we provide an affordable and Biblical approach that is already working right now and which is specifically protected within Obamacare.
Whether you are for the approach to health care reform that is represented by Obamacare or you are against government’s continued takeover of individual choice and responsibility, in either case The Health Co-Op gives you a Christ-centered way of moving forward, being a good steward of your resources, and promoting not politics but Christ.
Not long ago, we’ve seen a lot in the news about Obamacare and Catholics refusing to pay for things like abortions. How does all of this impact what you are describing?
Tony Dale: I greatly respect our Catholic brothers and sisters for the impact they are having on this public discourse. The tragedy to me is that most evangelical Christians have not even considered the moral and ethical implications, let alone the religious freedom issues that are currently being championed by the Catholics.
We need to understand what our silence and acquiescence to the current system has led to. We can then take a personal stand and count the cost, and the benefit, of finding better alternatives.
Are there any credible churches or ministries that are already using this approach?
Tony Dale: Yes, there are very credible and well-known institutions and Christian leaders who are already using these approaches. I would be glad to refer your readers to such ministries and the public statements that they have made. This includes mega-churches, colleges, mission groups, along with tens of thousands of individual Christians, some of them very well known.
What is it that your company, The Karis Group, does in working with these Christian medical cost sharing groups?
Tony Dale: We began in 1996 as a medical bill negotiation and mediation company. Since then we have handled hundreds of millions of dollars of medical bill negotiation for the Christian medical cost sharing groups alongside doing similar work for many household name insurance companies and other major entities. In the process we have become the industry leader for helping people to navigate the complexities of the health care world while making sure that their out-of-pocket expenses are kept to a minimum.
More recently, I have helped to found The Health Co-Op, a co-operative business model to provide a comprehensive approach for Christians to dealing with the whole spectrum of health care issues, based around the extensive experience of a number of leading groups within the health care world. Through this “co-operative” approach we can help any Christian group handle anything from major medical expenses to dental, vision, and pharmaceutical costs.
If anyone who is reading this is interested to know more, what should be their next step?
Tony Dale: That is a great question. I would suggest that they start by exploring our website at www.thehealthcoop.com. Anyone is then welcome to contact us at info@thehealthcoop.com and we will be glad to get back in direct contact with them.
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As far as people getting sick due to sinful choices, there are a lot of Christians who eat too much and don’t exercise and get sick but they aren’t penalized in the same way that I am. In a way, all health problems were brought on by the sinful choices of Adam and Eve. Christians are saved from eternal separation from God as the result of their sin but they still sin and they all get sick eventually and all of us eventually, suffer physical death, at some point. I don’t think it is right to include some Christians and not others. I work very hard at maintaining my health and even with several chronic conditions, I am healthier and more productive than people who were raised in Christian homes and never participated in worldly practices, or at least, never got caught or contracted a disease as the result of their actions.
I think doctors and patients should form their own co-ops. I’m all for anything that strenghthens the doctor patient relationship and produces compassionate health-care for all. Before everyone had insurance, I knew doctors that bartered with patients for part of their care. Corporate health care, even labeled Christian, doesn’t work that well for sick patients and neither will govenment health care.
Pam
Again Stuart. A company who handles millions and millions of dollars need to increase profits “christian” or not. Profit over decline comes first.
There is an assumption here that the reason for sickness is sin. While it’s clear that the ultimate cause of sickness is the Fall, one cannot make that generalization to apply to individual people. My wife is one of the most health conscious people I know; never smoked, drinks moderately, was a virgin when she married me. She got cancer in her throat, which I’m pretty sure is a pre-existing condition.
The idea that healthy people are more virtuous and that they therefore “merit” health care is not, in my view, a Christian idea. Remember John 9. The assumption of Jesus’ disciples was that the blind man or someone in his family sinned. The Lord corrected them, saying the blindness “happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.” (Jn 9:3)
I certainly recognize that choosing to have a sinful lifestyle can have deleterious health consequences. I must confess, however, that the “Christian” health care referred to above seems to smack of a Christian elitism that is deeply unattractive as well as mistaken.
I’m either missing something that you’re rightly detecting or you’re reading into the interview in a major way.
Can you give examples where either I or Tony said or “assumed” that all sickness is the result of personal sin? I certainly don’t believe that and don’t know where that ideas is coming from.
Also, your charge of “elitism” is a pretty serious one for what Tony is trying to do to help people receive medical care. Can you give specific examples of that also, please, that are not engaging in the sin of imputing evil motives?
I’m not sure how long you’ve been around the blog, but when accusations are made against people’s good will, those making them get challenged directly by others or myself. Hope you understand. Thanks.
What was behind my elitism remarks was the idea that people with preexisting conditions won’t have those conditions covered under this plan and the idea that I’m getting about this program is that the healthy are the only folks who would get meaningful coverage. It seems, also, that the rationale behind this system is that folks who are Christian will have better health outcomes than the general population. That may be true in general but it certainly wouldn’t be true of many situations. My wife, for example, would not get any of her cancer treatment covered. She didn’t do anything to deserve her cancer and many people do nothing to deserve getting sick. Of course, some do.
I don’t mean to characterize Tony’s motives, but these are the problems I see with the program. It may meet the problems that some Christians are dealing with in their health care but it doesn’t seem to really help folks like me and my family.
JD, thank you so much for your passion in defending the Christian who gets sick. I 100% agree with your challenge to people who give the impression that people are sick because their faith is weak or because of sin in their lives. As a physician it was very clear to me that in the vast majority of cases individuals had no choice and no part in how or why they became ill. They were suffering the overall impact of the Fall on mankind.
What I am trying to communicate simply in my responses to very complex issues is that Christians, in seeking to show godly solutions, need to be able to demonstrate that they have workable answers. Many things that sound black and white are actually rather grey in practice. For example, I would love it if I was taxed less so that I could give more. This would enable me to “share one another’s burdens” even more than I currently can. But I live in this country by choice with its tax system and so I willingly (most of the time) pay my taxes, and those taxes are used for things I approve of and things I don’t approve of. One of the things I approve of is helping those who are uninsured or uninsurable. So in your wife’s case, the costs of her cancer may not be shared through one of the Christian sharing ministries, but I would love to make sure that she was covered through the social safety network that has been put in place through all of our taxes. In time, as our Christian sharing networks get bigger (much bigger – the insurance companies work in millions of people to share risk while we still work in tens of thousands to share each others needs), we will be more effective in helping those who need this help now, especially if we have been able in parallel with this to help the country towards a lower tax system leaving us with more funds to give where we believe it has useful impact.
Christians do not have to agree on the details of how we solve all of these complex problems. My bias is to let the individual Christian and the Christian community that he/she is a part of work towards finding the answers to these challenges rather than having government step in and do our charitable work for us. Others may prefer a different approach. Let’s work together though to solve the challenges.
Before moving back to Canada from the U.S. I explored a Christian medical bill sharing outfit known at the time as ‘MediShare’. I’m not sure if they’re still around but the concept was similar.
Frank I have been puzzled by the Health politics in the USA for a long time. The cost of it is beyond the ordinary citizen. Having lived overseas every health insurance scheme outside of Australia has covered me except in the USA. I watched Michael Moore’s view in “Sicko”. Where is the Good Samaritan in the health system? Queensland has always had a free hospital scheme. The downside was that there was a state lottery set-up to fund it ! Christians in the life of the early church founded ‘hospitals’. Even in church hospitals there is an absence of ‘Christian care’ now. There is ‘profesional’care, but not ‘Christian’ care like the nuns in the past. Where is the TLC as an important component of healing in hospitals? In a ‘church’ hospital recently it was the domestic staff who spent time to talk to me !
I do not see the benefit in paying into an “insurance” system that cannot afford it’s sick. What a waste of money. In other words…..if you are healthy, you can throw your money our way and we will tell you it will all be ok. Most people are sick because they did not do something right. That is why they “need a doctor.” What is the big surprise? Sickness is a consequence to sin and often a curse. We all need help in one way or another if we are honest with ourselves. There has to be a better way. Maybe if there was a ministry connected with this “insurance”. A ministry that prayed for the sick, and the sick were healed? Sorry for the sarcasm but I am tired of dancing with the Devil. We need “the Kingdom” to manifest. I am desperate for the Lord to shine through us. Without a change in the condition of the Church we will continue to waste money on hellish institutions like healthcare. Henry Wright wrote a book called “A More Excellent Way.” He seems to have some biblical principles that may solve a lot of our problems. It is worth reading.
Mary Anne, you said “We need “the Kingdom” to manifest. I am desperate for the Lord to shine through us.”
I couldn’t agree more. The federal government is too inefficient, political, slow, and insensitive to run a sustainable healthcare system (as a federal employee myself, I know). I DO like the idea of a health co-operative–especially one that operates on Christian principles. However, as any business, there is still an underlying drive to remain solvent and manage available funds with risk-based business decisions (who can blame them, how can you help anyone if you are filing bankruptcy?). It’s certainly a step in the right direction.
Ultimately however, I believe the sustainable solution is found by living out Acts 4:32-35 without reservation. When we fulfill God’s eternal purpose of truly being His family here on earth–when we really live in a loving community of faith–there will be real hope for the ailing. Who hasn’t heard of a story where the entire family has taken jobs to help their mother pay the medical bills (pre-existing or otherwise)?
I’ve always liked the idea of a Christian health cooperative, but these organizations seem designed only to provide health services for relatively healthy people. They usually work just like insurance companies when it comes to those who have some kind of preexisting health problems. I understand that accepting people with these conditions would increase the costs, but I’m not sure I understand promoting the “Christian” part of “cooperative” when as “Christians” we should be concerned about more than healthy folks. Seems to me that a truly “Christian” effort would be to help the sick, not just the healthy, just like a “Christian” effort to help the “poor” would actually serve poor people, not just those who are already financially well-off. The use of the word “Christian” in these health cooperatives seems to be more of a marketing tool than a true religious/philosophical underpinning. I don’t mean that to be as harsh as it sounds. I just struggle with the idea that a “Christian” health care cooperative excludes those who really need the help.
Bill: See Tony’s response to this question that he posted recently in the comments.
Thanks, Frank. I read Tony’s reply, and appreciate the fact that there is some effort to help folks, but it seems to me his answer is that of an “insurance” company. I totally understand the cost problem of helping everyone including those with preexisting conditions. I’m just saying that when it comes to Christians joining together to help each other, why do we eliminate those who need the help? To me it sounds similar to someone saying, “We need to get together and help each other deal with the problem of hunger, but we’re going to eliminate those who are already hungry because the cost would be prohibitive.” As Christians, are we only to help those who will possibly get sick in the future, or help those who are already sick? My objection, I think, is marketing a health cooperative as “Christian.” Want a health cooperative? Go ahead. But, to sell it as a Christian cooperative, then not practice Christian principles is troubling.
Bill, you raise very interesting points, which I personally find very challenging. You are putting your finger on why I have spent most of the last 18 months putting together elements of The Health Co-Op. We don’t have it perfect, and we certainly don’t have answers to all of the challenges that we face. But we are also trying to be pragmatic and do what we can with existing programs and resources. As the old Chinese proverb says, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.” We have taken some small steps. Please pray for us that we have wisdom how to move the whole concept forward. We value any insights that you and others have as to how to best resolve the dilemmas that you raise.
Thanks, Tony, I appreciate your response, and I really do understand the great difficulty in putting together something that is both effective and reasonable. I will be most interested in what you guys develop in the future. I hope Frank will give you space to keep us informed. Otherwise, there is a great possibility I’ll miss it! I truly think you’re on to something good. My personal request would be to find a way to include the people who need it the most, and that’s not just the healthy, it’s the others.
Frank, you rightfully highlighted one gap in consciousness among the evangelical Christian community, in comparison to Catholics. The comments have highlighted the other, namely, our all-too-quick failure to consider “the least of these” in our programs and activities. Justice and mercy. They go together.
Growing up with a strong faith, I was not raised to be compassionate toward outsiders and those who are truly down and out, but I have had to learn compassion the hard way. My son has special needs, milder than many, but a daily challenge. Now I attend a church that feeds 200 families per week, and has a free medical clinic for those who cannot afford medical care. Healing and feeding is as much a part of being the Body of Christ incarnate, today, as when Christ walked around in his incarnate body.
I don’t know the answer to this question, but must ask: If a program will exclude anyone with pre-existing conditions, should we call it “Christian”?
Jeff: See Tony’s response to this question that he posted recently in the comments.
Frank, I would have to agree with Lance as well. I’ve have some bad business experiences with so-called Christian business owners. Now, I don’t believe all are bad but that are some imposter in the mix. My concern would be for the quality of health care in these co-op programs. And more importantly, the level of experience of the medical staff, i.e doctor’s, nurse’s, medical techs and so on. We all know that the health care industry has become a big money making adventure at the expense of mostly the poor and uneducated. Big pharma is running rapid in this world and is completely out of control. Another important aspect of health care is alternative healing which focuses on helping the body heal itself as we were designed to be. Therefor helping people rid themselves of being over-medicated and prescription dependent for life. I really pray for this option to be true but until then I must continue to seek the Lord and hope for His eminent return. Blessing to you both Frank and Tony. Shalom
Paul, one of the things I love about the Christian health care sharing programs is that most of them do not limit who you can go to as your physician or clinic/hospital of choice. So the decisions as to where to go to get medical (as opposed to alternative) help is up to you. I think the reason that most of them limit (but don’t exclude) alternative medical help, is because it is much harder to quantify what happens in the alternative health world. Your comments on “big pharma” are also interesting. Big pharma has brought us Penicillin and saved millions of lives. It has also brought us many drugs that enslave millions of lives. We live in a fallen world. We need Christians in the world, but not of it, to seek to make the “kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ.”
Even as a life-long Christian, unfortunately I cannot recall a positive business experience I’ve ever had with an outfit that advertised its Christianity. But the co-op idea is worth exploring.
Lance: I’m with you . . . I’ve never had one either. But I’ve known Tony for over a decade, and I trust him. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have featured the interview.
I have been doing with the Karis Group already for their great services which include walking me through how to use my insurance the best, (which seems way too complicated to me and my insurance company doesn’t seem to be so helpful doing it) to helping with negotiations of medical bills. Having had a spouse who was uncovered for some time, and then receiving a huge medical incident, I was faithful to pay what I could monthly for awhile, but then I joined Karis, and their awesome staff helped me to sources where I could verify typical charges for the medical care I received, and I think it is fair to say I got gouged in a severe way! However, they negotiated a huge break for me, and I was fortunate to be able to pay what I could (I think a doctor is a valuable resource that deserves compensation) without having to pay mega-insane amounts of money. I am thankful for this post, and I look forward to investigating for my family healthcare options Karis may have under their roof. All of folks are people who work in systems, and none of them will be perfect…but some can definitely be better than others. I love the idea of being able to express my faith and resources in a way that helps other brothers and sisters, and still can provide coverage for myself…and help me from getting severely overcharged! Before anyone gets too quick with a thought of what Tony had to say, I’d encourage you to do some background homework on his and Felicity’s story, and how they ended up getting to do what they do with Karis, and what Karis ultimately ends up supporting. I think they are an incredible inspiration to me in the Kingdom of God, and I believe wholeheartedly they are for positive medical solutions for people, and sacrificed much in order to help in that way.
Lance, I certainly understand where you are coming from. In my 25 years in business in this country, the only two times I have been actively cheated was by Christians! But for those two times I have been badly treated, I have been treated hundreds of times fairly and appropriately, and at times extremely generously. Don’t let the few bad apples make you cynical! What I have had to learn is to forgive and continue to think the best of people. I don’t want to close myself to my brothers and sisters because of a few bad experiences. I want to “keep no record of being wronged. . . Love never gives up, never looses faith, is always hopeful.” 1 Cor. 13:5-6
“Whether you are for the approach to health care reform that is represented by Obamacare or you are against government’s continued takeover of individual choice and responsibility…”
I’d expect a little more from you guys. That’s a remarkably loaded statement, heavy with bias and personal perspective.
Ahem [cough] . . . I could have sworn that was Tony’s statement, not mine. Tony . . . would you care to respond to Jonathan’s remark?
Jonathan, I naturally have my bias just like anyone else! I came from the UK where health care was handed to everyone on a plate and no-one really thought through the issues of personal responsibilities. I lived and work in a very poor part of London for 15 years as a family doctor and I watched the impact of intergenerational government handouts on the poor. I became convinced that instead of helping the poor, government policy was trapping the poor within their poverty. So yes, I am biased! But is is based on my extensive experience of working within the systems that we all find ourselves a part of. So even now, my work is helping those who can’t afford to pay their medical bills for whatever reason find a way to navigate the system. We Christians do have solutions, but we have to live out what we believe. There are many ways to do this. I am living out from my understanding and encourage you and others to similarly live out from your understanding of how we can help those around us.
Frank, I was relieved to see where you took your headline.
Since I entered His Kingdom and came out of her(this worlds system) I have inquired of the Lord and many brothers and sisters how we can negotiate our way here in this world and I am refreshed to see just how many options God gives us.
All these trees we can eat from.
From this Co-op to medical solutions that actually CURE or bring our body’s to a place of healing we can lean into Him and His body as well as meet each others needs much more efficiently and effectively than the systems this world has in place.
Hooray! Frank the body is being built up in our Oneanothering!
Hi,
My wife and I have pre existing medical conditions and these sharing programs would exclude us. I don’t see how these groups could afford people like us. We are from the US and are missionaries and would love to return to the USA but we can’t because of our medical conditions. We are very blessed to have the NHS in the UK, or we would be dead.
Timothy, I worked as a doctor in the NHS for many years, and trained at the world famous Barts Hospital in London. We have a great love for the British system, but also are the first to admit that it also has many faults. This is not the place for discussing the pros and cons of the British system. Rather let me point you to the reply that I gave to Stuart, above. I think that we can find a way to help you come back, if you are interested.
I have been a part of two Christian sharing medical programs. Both provided good financial help when needed. Unfortunately, the last one I was with doubled their monthly sharing without any warning. I had to drop out, it was way out of my budget range.
Stuart, you have posed some very important questions that must be addressed if the Christian community is to have confidence in these programs. All I can do in this limited space is give a very brief reply, but also say that I welcome questions to me directly via The Health Co-Op site.
To the best of my knowledge two of the three major Christian health care sharing programs would accept the person with the pre-existing condition, but would probably not accept the condition itself. The reason they would not accept the condition itself, but only anything else that then occurred to the already ill person, is that to just accept the full costs of the existing illness would not be fair on everyone else already in the program and would end up making the whole program unsustainable. This is one of the challenges that many people have with the Affordable Care Act (ACA or what the press often calls Obamacare). Since it mandates that all people must be accepted, even if they are already ill, that massively puts up the costs for everyone else. It is like saying you can buy your car insurance after you have already been in a crash, and the insurance will pay for the crash that has already happened.
So what can (and should) Christians do in a challenging situation like this. The largest of the Christian health care sharing programs, Samaritan Ministries, does have a model for helping anyone in this situation. By allowing that person to bring in a certain number of healthy people with them into the program, they can often accomodate this problem. With what we do in The Health Co-Op, we mimic this approach by both helping people be a part of the informal groups that we create (say all of the members who want to be a part of this in one church, or in a group of churches) and then through the generosity of an existing group like Samaritan Ministries, and through the additonal resources in the informal groups that we have created, we find a way to cover these costs.
But even these steps are sometimes inadequate. Sometimes the costs are so large that one has to look outside of our current ability to handle these situations. This is where it is extremely helpful that society – through our governments, both State and Federal – already have in place mechanisms for insuring those who are technically uninsurable. Since all of us already pay taxes to cover these societal solutions, we are willing to help people secure access to these governmental solutions, called “Risk Pools.”
David Van H, you have raised another very important issue. All groups, including these Christian sharing groups face the challenges of ever escalating medical costs. This is a very complex and difficult area to area briefly. Let me suggest two things:
1. All of the Christian sharing groups offer good value, but they don’t all offer the same value. They all have slightly different approaches to each other. It is worth checking them out carefully and seeing what is best for you. We are happy to help people explore those options.
2. There are significantly different costs between the different groups, I would be glad to help you understand why that is and what may be best for you. Some of the groups have been remarkably stable in their costs for many years. This could provide you with the certainty for planing your finances that you need.
Back in 2007, my wife and I tried to apply to a Christian medical needs sharing program. But because of some specific medical needs in our family, they would only cover me and not my wife. I could not comprehend why a CHRISTIAN medical needs sharing program would separate a husband and wife. I understand that they have to manage their costs, but does that mean that some brothers and sisters are of more value because their health needs are easier to manage? That is one of the real challenges that I have observed with the medical needs sharing programs, especially when you entertain the idea of “those who make poor health decisions”. Those who have minimal needs because they have made good health decisions, heredity, or nothing has happened yet can become proud and “lord it over” their brother or sister who has a real need. Sometimes that medical need is not their fault and sometimes it is. Even if it is their fault, should we exclude a brother or sister simply because they are in that situation? If we exclude them, how is the love of Jesus shown in that decision? How are we showing the grace of God by offering them a way out of their bad decisions if that is possible? When it is not their fault (e.g., heredity, accident, etc.), how can we come alongside them and not simply say, “Well, it just isn’t a good business decision to cover your needs. Be warm, be fed, and the Lord will provide somehow for you.” There needs to be a way for us to come alongside them and encourage them in their situation. Just some thoughts from me.