Deep Ecclesiology

What follows is the afterword in From Eternity to Here. To my mind, it’s one of the most important parts of the book. So I’m publishing it here. It can also be titled “One Man’s Journey into Rediscovering Jesus.”

. . . the summing up of all things in Christ. (Ephesians 1:10, NASB)

My friends Andrew Jones and Brian McLaren have written about something they call “deep ecclesiology.” This phrase appears to be derived from Noam Chomsky’s linguistic theory of deep semantics.”

Chomsky said that underlying the “surface structures” of the statements we make is a deeper and simpler structure that’s ingrained in the human capacity for language.

Andrew and Brian have said that in a similar way there lies underneath our varying models of church a basic underlying reality that’s manifested in our historical and social settings. This notion has been coined “deep ecclesiology.”

I resonate wholeheartedly with the concept that there is a reality of the church that is higher and deeper than what typically occurs in many modern church structures. To wit, a “deeper” ecclesiology.

At the time of this writing, the phrase “deep ecclesiology” is still being shaped. I have shared my thoughts on this subject with both Brian and Andrew, along with some others in the emerging church conversation. So this chapter can be considered a stab at furthering that shaping in the public arena.

I strongly believe that the underlying reality of the church is none other than Jesus Christ Himself. Not as a doctrine. Nor as a system of belief. Nor as a set of moral teachings. Not as a moral philosopher or social activist. But as a living Person who has thoughts, feelings, and volition. A living Person who dwells within our spirits and who can be known.

To my mind, any ecclesiology that does not make Christ absolutely central in its life, mission, and expression cannot be rightly called “deep.”

The church is the indwelling of Christ in a group of local people by the Holy Spirit. Those models and forms of church which best enact this reality, giving it visible expression, are adequate toward fulfilling a deep ecclesiology. Those models and forms which do not should be discarded for those which better enact it.

Here I will attempt to explain how I arrived at this conclusion and what it means (at least for me) in concrete terms.

Revivalist Theology

Shortly after I began following the Lord at age sixteen, I was introduced to something called “revivalist theology.” If you are an evangelical Christian, then you may be familiar with this theology. Revivalist theology was founded during the days of the English revivalist George Whitefield. It was later picked up and popularized by Dwight L. Moody.

D.L. Moody was an American revivalist who lived in the 19th century. Historians estimate that Moody preached the gospel to 100 million people in his lifetime. Moody didn’t have televisions, the Internet, radios, cable TV, fax machines, mp3 players, email, nor did he put out a national magazine. He did most of his preaching on foot and preached in the open air. It has been said that Moody brought one million people to Christ.

During the years of 1870 to 1900, revivalist theology was born. And it largely came through the womb of D.L. Moody’s ministry. What is revivalist theology? Revivalist theology hangs on two unshakable precepts: 1) If you are lost, you must be saved. 2) If you are saved, you must win the lost. According to revivalist theology, every word in the Bible — both Old and New Testaments — hangs on these two precepts. Everything in the Bible can be juiced down to those two things.

To unravel it further, revivalist theology teaches that the only reason why you are alive today is so that you can get other people’s papers in order for heaven. In fact, that is the only reason why God didn’t strike you deader-than-a-hammer after you became a Christian.

Because I had never been taught anything else, I embraced this theology hook, line, and sinker. I later came to realize that revivalist theology is untenable. It dutifully ignores 99.7% of the Bible. (I can only think of two occasions in the New Testament where Christians who were not apostles preached the gospel to the lost. Additionally, I cannot think of any verse in any letter in the New Testament penned by Paul, Peter, John, James or Jude where Christians are exhorted to preach the gospel to the lost.)

Am I against revival? No. Am I against sharing the gospel with the lost? Not at all. What I am against is the penchant to take the New Testament and stretch it to the point where it fits revivalist theology. The vast bulk of the New Testament is not about winning the lost. As we have seen in the previous pages, there is something else that Scripture is preoccupied with.

The Power of God

After I was thoroughly schooled in revivalist theology (this included knocking on doors, “Four-Lawing” strangers, and taking sinners down “the Romans road”), I was introduced to “the power of God.” I drank deeply from the wells of a movement that obsessed over God’s power. I heard sermon after sermon on the gifts of the Spirit, the recovery of the gifts, miracles, healings, signs and wonders. I also had my share of experiences with God’s power.

Today, I am a firm believer that the power of God is real and operative in our time. However, when I stood back from that season in my life, I made a few telling observations. First, most of the people that I ran around with who incessantly talked about “the power of God” were the same people who were most lacking in God’s power. I saw this countless times. So much so that it became a predictable pattern.

Second, I met a few King Sauls, a few Balaams, and a few Samsons in this camp. Explanation: These men had tre­mendous outward power. King Saul prophesied accurately, Balaam had an incredible gift of the word of knowledge and the word of wisdom, and Samson was unstoppable in his display of physical strength.

But there was one other thing that these three men shared. They all had defective characters in some arena of their lives. And their flesh was very much alive in those arenas. Outwardly, they had impressive gifts of spiritual power. But inwardly, they lacked something fundamental.

In one of his letters, Paul carries on rather loudly about the peril of possessing gifts of great spiritual power, including spiritual insight into the deep mysteries of God, and yet lacking some of the basic features of love, like honesty, humility, and kindness (see 1 Cor. 13:1-3). Character, therefore, and not gifting, is the only reliable sign of God’s work in a person’s life (Matt. 7:22-23).

I made another puzzling observation on this score. I noticed that so many of my fellow brethren who talked about the power of God seemed to be incredibly self-absorbed. They had an uncommon knack for talking about themselves and how God was using them with His power. Whenever they would testify, 10% of it seemed to be about what God was doing. The other 90% was how God was using them and what they were doing.

Paul of Tarsus, a man who had tremendous spiritual gifts, hardly uttered a whisper about how God used him. And the one time that he described his spiritual experiences, he was backed into a corner to testify about them. In so doing, he did two notable things. One, he used the third person to describe his revelation of the Lord. Two, he said he was speaking as a fool in detailing God’s power in his life (see 2 Corinthians 12:1ff.).

I’ve since learned that those who have genuine power with God do not talk much about it. And they certainly don’t talk about themselves a whole lot either. I learned that it’s profoundly easy to become drunk on God’s power — to become obsessed with the miraculous — to become fixated with spiritual gifting — and lose sight of Jesus Christ in the process.

It’s a perilous thing when men try to harness God. I’m a firm believer that the church of Jesus Christ has been granted enormous spiritual power. But that power is upon the church, not a set of special individuals.

I have sadly watched the power of God be reduced to something quite common and cheap. The result: The power becomes diluted. Within the confines of the body of Christ, the power of God is safe. That’s because the church is the steward of God’s power. Outside of her, it becomes easily corrupted.

Am I against the power of God? Not at all. I appreciate the power of God. I even awe at it. But I am against putting power on the throne. For that reason, I cast a cautious eye upon those who claim to have God’s power.

The power of God is Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:24). And the Holy Spirit has come to reveal, honor, and glorify Him (John 15:26; 16:13-14). It’s a fitting irony, therefore, that one of the things which will derail you and me from encountering what the Holy Spirit came to do is to seek the power of God. To put it in prescription form: Seek the power of God, and you will undoubtedly miss the Christ who embodies that power.

Eschatology and Doctrine

After that season in my life, I was sold a different bag of Christian goods. I ended up on the eschatology train. Eschatology is the study of things to come — the study of end times. When is Jesus Christ going to return? When is Russia going to invade Jerusalem? What is the meaning of the ninth toe on the foot of the beast in the book of Revelation? When does Daniel’s 70 weeks” begin? Who is the false prophet? And of course, who is the antichrist and exactly what is the mark of the beast?

Open admission: I caught eschatology fever. I was bitten by the rapture bug. I began studying the visions of Daniel and Revelation, making charts, plotting graphs, mapping out the movements of the antichrist, the false prophet, God and Magog, etc.

Attention young Christians: You can get ridiculously obsessed with rapture fever. I was taught, “This is important. We have to know prophecy. We must study prophecy. 90% of the Bible is prophecy. We have a duty to understand it.”

Let me confess. I was pathetically into eschatology. So much so that I could discuss it for hours with wild-eyed fascination.

But I made a discovery. That all of those hours I spent pouring over Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation, trying to put the end-time puzzle together, did not help me one iota to come to know my Lord better. It was largely an academic, intellectual exercise. And a sterile one at that.

The result: I stopped studying end-time prophecy.

After I got off the eschatology bandwagon, I was introduced to something called “Christian theology” and “Christian doctrine.” I was taught that the most important thing that God wants for His people is that they know and embrace “sound doctrine.” So I rigorously studied the Scriptures, along with the views of Calvin, Arminius, Luther, and many contemporary theologians and scholars.

In my early 20s, I was attending various Bible studies — each sponsored by different denominations and movements. There I would engage in the usual shrill disputes over doctrine with my Christian brothers. I will shamelessly admit that I enjoyed the mental stimulation of sharpening my doctrinal sword on the side of someone else’s head.

But during that season, I made another discovery. Namely, that Christian doctrine can make a person downright mean. I observed that the men who were the most schooled in Christian doctrine and the most concerned about “sound theology” did not resemble Jesus Christ at all in their behavior. Instead, they seemed to center their lives on making the unimportant critical.

The spirit of the Lamb was altogether missing. They were harsh personalities who appeared to almost hate those with whom they disagreed. Granted, there is a doctrine in the New Testament. But majoring on Christian doctrine and theology can turn Christians into in quisitors. The words of Thomas Aquinas are fitting: “Lord, in my zeal for love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love.”

Am I against doctrine? No sir. Am I against theology? No ma’am. But I do not advocate an overemphasis on it. Con­sequently, I came to the place where I was compelled to lay down my doctrinal sword, for like Peter, I had been cutting people’s ears off with it!

I recommend that you study church history. It will make you cry. Our forefathers drew their swords against one another, spilling their blood over doctrines. Peripheral doctrines at that. They crossed swords over their private interpretations of Scripture, and it often ended in bloodshed. Again, majoring in doctrine can make a Christian vicious. History bears this out.

After I dropped pursuing doctrine and theology, I became involved in a lot of other Christian “things.” I majored in holiness, believing that it was the central theme of the Bible. I then majored in faith and learned the principles of “walking in” and “living by” faith. I became deeply involved in “worship and praise”, deeming both to be the central desire of God. Then it was ministry to the poor. Then personal prophecy.

After that it was Christian apologetics. My venture into apologetics led me to debate with the president of the American Atheist Association in the city where I lived. I was 23 years old at the time. I studied the apparent contradictions of the Bible and resolved many of them. (Today, I am perfectly content to leave them unresolved.)

While it was great fun watching my atheist opponent squirm, the thrill soon wore off. While he didn’t convert to Christ, he had to rethink his understanding of what a Christian was. Even so, I suspect there was little eternal value that came of it.

The Embodiment of All Spiritual Things

Enough of the historical narrative. Here’s my point. In the first eight years of my Christian experience, I learned to major in a slew of “Christian” things. And that is my point — they were things.

All of the churches and movements I was involved in had effectively preached to me an it. Evangelism is an it. The power of God is an it. Eschatology is an it. Christian theology is an it. Christian doctrine is an it. Faith is an it. Apologetics is an it.

I made the striking discovery that I don’t need an it. I have never needed an it. And I will never need an it. Christian its, no matter how good or true, eventually wear out, run dry, and become tiresome.

I don’t need an it, I need a Him.

And so do you.

We do not need things. We need Jesus Christ.

Everything in Scripture — every book, every story, every teaching, every theme, every letter, every verse, all of the arrows point to Him.

You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! (John 5:39, NLT)

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself . . . Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him. (Luke 24:27, 31)

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. (Luke 24:44-45)

To be truly scriptural is to be Christological, for Jesus Christ is the subject of all Scripture. This discovery changed my life.

My journey didn’t end there, however. Around the same time, I made another life-altering discovery. It was this: That Jesus Christ is the embodiment of all Divine things. My eyes were opened to see that Jesus Christ is Salvation. Jesus Christ is the Power of God. Jesus Christ is Holiness. Jesus Christ is Doctrine. Jesus Christ is the living incarnation of everything that is spiritual.

You can chase spiritual things until you are blue in the face. Whether it be God’s power, miracles, healing, church planting, church reproduction, discipleship, evangelism, Bible study, etc. There will always be some Christian who is peddling a new “it” or a “thing” upon which to center your life. Warning: If you buy into it, you will most certainly miss Him.

When I realized that Christ was everything in the Christian life and that the Father had put all spiritual things into Him, it radically changed my life. Gone were the days where I sought “things.” Gone were the days where I chased after Christian truths, doctrines, and theologies. A new chapter had opened where I began to seek Christ Himself. I sought to be drowned in the face of the knowledge of my Lord. For I discovered that in Him exists everything that I needed.

God’s object from first to last is His Son. It is Christ — and Christ alone — that God the Father desires for His people. I had grossly confused spiritual growth with acquiring spiritual things. So I went about pursuing spiritual knowledge, spiritual virtues, spiritual graces, spiritual gifts and spiritual power. I later discovered that spiritual growth is nothing more than having Christ formed within (Gal. 4:19).

When we are saved, Jesus Christ is begotten in us. He then grows in us. Spiritual growth, then, is nothing more than knowing Him and allowing Him to grow in us.

Upon reflection, it seems that many Christians regard salvation, evangelism, peace, power, holiness, joy, service, church practice, ministry, and doctrine as simply Divine “things”, all detached from the living Person of Christ and made something in and of themselves.

But God never gives us spiritual things. He never gives us virtues, gifts, graces, and truths to acquire. Instead, He only gives us His Son. He gives us Christ to be all things for us.

Consequently, Jesus Christ is the embodiment of all spiritual things. He is the substance of all Divine realities. He is the incarnation of all spiritual virtues, graces, gifts, and truths. In short, God has vested all of His fullness into His Son.

In other words, Jesus Christ not only reveals the way to His people, He is the Way. Jesus Christ not only reveals the truth to His people, He is the Truth. Jesus Christ is not only the giver of life, He is the Life (John 14:6). Put another way, Christ is the incarnation of all that He gives. He is All and All. That is, He is everything to everyone who has received His life.

*   Jesus Christ is Hope (1 Tim. 1:1).

*   Jesus Christ is Peace (Eph. 2:14).

*   Jesus Christ is Wisdom (1 Cor. 1:30).

*   Jesus Christ is Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30).

*   Jesus Christ is Holiness (1 Cor. 1:30).

*   Jesus Christ is Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30).

Hope is not a thing to be sought after, it’s a Person. Peace is not a virtue to be obtained, it’s Christ. Righteousness is not a grace to be asked for, it’s Christ, and on and on. One is a spiritual “thing.” The other is the Lord Himself. To put it in a sentence, Jesus Christ is not simply the giver of gifts, He Himself is the Gift.

Spiritual progress, therefore, is tied up in knowing Christ as our All. It takes place when we take Christ as our Portion to be all things for us. Greater Bible knowledge will not do this for you. Increased religious activity or spiritual service will not do this for you. Neither will spending more time praying. Only a revelation of the vastness of Christ can meet the bill.

As I survey the landscape of modern Christianity, it seems to me that spiritual things and objects have replaced the Person of Christ. The doctrines, gifts, graces, virtues, and duties that we so earnestly seek have substituted for Jesus Himself. We look to this gift and that gift, we study this truth and that truth, we seek to appropriate this virtue, we try to fulfill this duty, but all along we fail to find Him.

When the Father gives us something, it’s always His Son. When the Son gives us something, it’s always Himself. This insight greatly simplifies the Christian life. Instead of seeking many spiritual things, we only seek Him. Our single occupation is the Lord Jesus Christ. He becomes our only pursuit. We do not seek Divine things, we seek a Divine Person. We do not seek gifts; we seek the giver who embodies all the gifts. We do not seek truth; we seek the incarnation of all truth.

God has given us all spiritual things in His Son. He has made Him to be our wisdom, our righteousness, our sanctification, our redemption, our peace, our hope, etc. Recognizing that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of all spiritual things will change your prayer life. It will change your vocabulary and the way you think and talk about spiritual things. And it will ultimately change your practice of the church.

Toward the Reality of the Church

To put it candidly, you will never have an authentic experience of the body of Christ unless your foundation is blindly and singularly Jesus Christ. Authentic church life is born when a group of people are intoxicated with a glorious unveiling of their Lord.

The chief task of a Christian leader, therefore, is to present a Christ to God’s people that they have never known, dreamed, or imagined. A breathtaking Christ whom they can know intimately and love passionately. The calling of every Christian servant is to build the ekklesia upon an overmastering revelation of the Son of God. A revelation that burns in the fiber of their being and leaves God’s people breathless, overwhelmed, and awash in the glories of Jesus.

From God’s standpoint, the church’s center of gravity is Jesus Christ.

To the bride, He’s the bridegroom.

To the house, He’s the foundation, the cornerstone, and the capstone.

To the body, Christ is the head.

To the family, He’s the Firstborn.

When a church is centered on the ultimacy of Christ, it no longer chases Christian “things” or “its.” Knowing Christ, exploring Him, encountering Him, honoring Him, and loving Him becomes the church’s governing pursuit.

Rightly conceived, the church is a local group of people who have been immersed and saturated with a magnificent vision of Jesus Christ and who are discovering how to take Him as their All together. This discovery lies at the heart of a deep ecclesiology.

I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ . . . That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings . . . (Philippians 3:8, 10, KJV)

I will close with the fitting words of A.B. Simpson:

Once it was the blessing, Now it is the Lord;

Once it was the feeling, Now it is His Word.

Once His gifts I wanted, Now the Giver own;

Once I sought for healing, Now Himself alone.

Once twas painful trying, Now tis perfect trust;

Once a half salvation, Now the uttermost.

Once twas ceaseless holding, Now He holds me fast;

Once twas constant drifting, Now my anchor’s cast.

Once twas busy planning, Now tis trustful prayer;

Once twas anxious caring, Now He has the care.

Once twas what I wanted, Now what Jesus says;

Once twas constant asking, Now tis ceaseless praise.

Once it was my working, His it hence shall be;

Once I tried to use Him, Now He uses me.

Once the power I wanted, Now the Mighty One;

Once for self I labored, Now for Him alone

Once I hoped in Jesus, Now I know He’s mine;

Once my lamps were dying, Now they brightly shine.

Once for death I waited, Now His coming hail;

And my hopes are anchored, Safe within the veil.

Taken from From Eternity to Here (David C. Cook, 2009), pp. 291-305.




  1. Nick Bulbeck says

    I’m a bit late in coming to this thread, but hey… one might add another “it” to the list, namely a particular and highly emotional kind of “intimacy”. If you’ll forgive a rather brief and therefore probably rather crude summary, it goes something like this: If you’re truly in The Presence of God, then you will feel strong emotions, will probably weep, sob and pant, and in general experience deep emotional arousal. If you don’t get these things, then your heart is in bondage and you’re not released into true intimacy with God.

    In a manner reminiscent of several parts of your own story, I spent a lot of time and effort cultivating my emotions and learning (in a nutshell) to cry in church. Meanwhile, it never actually changed either me, nor life around me. And most major steps of growth in my life took place outside of the church. Eventually, in my mid-40’s, it dawned on me that if God loves me just as I am, that means I can actually be myself in his Presence™ – and if that isn’t very emotional, then so be it!

    A great relief, I can tell you.

  2. Jaime Harris says

    This resonated within me! So timely. One of, if not the, best blogs I’ve read. Thank you. It answered many questions I have had recently concerning my own journey through the “IT” seasons and how I felt there was still something so unfulfilling after all this time. And yet this would seem so elementary of a revelation ( for me personally)… But beautifully and passionately complex at the same time!!!

  3. Jim Puntney says

    The voice may be small, yet it is strong, the point may be overlooked, yet it is not diminished, the Church is the bride of Christ. It is the passion, the focus of the Eternal God.

    What we are experiencing, or better yet uncovering is the foundation of the Church (Jesus Christ). This foundation when built upon will be vastly different from the western concept that is in vogue currently.

    I do believe that we are seeing the beginning of more than a reformation, it is a revolution. This revolution will transform our thinking, and unite the followers of Christ in a way that will shake the foundations of this present age.

    This revolution is in, and through, and for Jesus the Christ.

  4. says

    Amen, we keep splicing Christ into pieces thinking we can have life by those pieces. The only way we can have life is by the whole of Christ. Just like a human body. If you chose only a few organs and cells of the body to live by you would die. It takes the whole.

    I am grieved as I watch those around me turn conversations about Christ into followings of pieces of Him. A following or debate about truth, preaching, gospel, salvation, faith, etc. Without realizing Christ is all those things, but those things are not Him nor can they exist apart from Him nor are they things we do! They are things Christ in us lives out through us. Can’t happen unless we focus entirely on knowing Him as our beloved.

    Sorry to ramble… Just loved what you said.

  5. Christopher Holmes says

    Frank you have just helped me understand what the Bride of Christ is and should be about. May God continue to open up His Christ to us.

  6. Adele Richards says

    Frank – I love this. I love your journey through all the varying focuses till you reach HIM.

    My question is about the place that the Father has in your life and thinking. Father is obsessed with Jesus, yes, but Jesus is also pretty crazy keen on Father too. After all he said ‘I am the way the truth and the life’ – we often think he means that he is the way to Heaven or Salvation, but a glance at the following verses reveal Jesus is saying I am the Way to the Father. So if the purpose of Jesus’s life on earth was to lead us to his Father….isn’t there also a wonderful way in which we can experience and know Father’s love and the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as a sortof triune focus of our spiritual lives? I mean it’s not like we have to pick our favourite person of the trinity or anything – but is there any chance that the next step on your journey is to go, WOW, I was totally Jesus-centric and then I met DADDY?


    • says

      Adele. There is no God outside of Jesus Christ. He is the God who is revealed in Christ. So we can only know the Father through and in the Son. I agree with Karl Barth on this point. So no, your last point would never be a concern. My book “Jesus Manifesto” goes into more detail on this.

  7. says

    Wow, I’m speechless. Can’t wait to read the book now. Funny because your link to Linkedin led me to your Magnum Opus, which led me to this article. If my husband had not just taken a business class on facebook last week that mentioned Linkedin, I would probably never have followed it. I was thinking that I really don’t need another social networking site but I can see the value of Linkedin now for our business.

    Can’t wait to read the book, did I say that already:) I don’t have time to read another book, but I will make time. So cool that God led me to you as He is shaping my material for the ministry He is leading me to. I’m at the ground floor and there is no greater foundation than Jesus.

  8. Robyn G. says

    Good good stuff! I think what so many of us, like blogger Daniel, grapple with is the idea that the simple act of living a life that follows Christ isn’t ENOUGH. We are learning that if we are truly absorbed with following Christ, loving Him and seeing Him for who he is, we won’t be able to keep our life from impacting the lost…if our focus and action is toward Christ not the lost…then our life will be an action upon the lost as God moves those into our life that he wants us to “naturally” encounter. Being salt and light will be our lifestyle. That is why so many radical right Christians find themselves combatants against the “wrongs” in the world…their action is often mis-directed and they find their efforts fruitless.

  9. says

    All in all forever,
    Only Christ I’ll sing.
    Everything is in Christ,
    And Christ is everything.

    That is one of my favorite hymns. May the Lord reduce us to Christ alone, our dear Bridegroom.

  10. says

    Frank, I’ve taken a similar journey in majoring in the very same things you’ve written about. I’ve learned much in each major. Mostly how patient God has been with me. In your statement, “Gone were the days where I chased after Christian truths, doc­trines, and theologies. A new chapter had opened where I began to seek Christ Himself,” I understand what you’re saying, but is not seeking Christ Himself only found in these truths, doctrines, and theologies?
    I think we must major in, and seek both…Jesus and His truths.

    • says

      Pursue Christ, and you’ll find the truth. He is the Truth. It’s possible to hold something true and not have Christ. Christ is the truth and not the other way around.

  11. Will McD says

    Religion divides us. People are scared of the unknown and more importantly death. People like you hold their religion to the highest regards because it explains the unexplainable and when they see somebody else holding something different they get offended and upset. Muslims, Jews, Pagans and Buddhists alike have experienced personal cases of divine intervention as well and that right there is proof that your God is not the “one true King of kings”. There is a Father of creation but he cares not what you call him, or that you call him, as long as you promote peace and happiness for all things man, animal and elements alike. Accept the unknown and stop allowing religion to divide you from your brothers and sisters.

  12. John says

    Very much a word for today and always. I believe the Lord said, ” Go away from me, I never knew you” in response to claims of everything but. I struggle often, as I am sure many do, when I seem to lack in doing stuff for God. However, I have noticed on many occasions, that when I seek Him in a love relationship, and I walk in the joy and peace and rest of the same, the stuff just happens. He becomes the overflow splashing on everything around me. I will get the book. Thanks

  13. Rod Koozmin says

    Still reading Eternal Purpose-A great concept! I was given a copy on Finding Organic Church and was reading that. Certianly our mani focus should be on Jesus Christ and I too have done all mannor of foolish ‘Christian’ diversions among them false prophecy and looking at world events to somehow fit them in the precieved current view of prophecy.

  14. Angela says

    Just a reminder, saying that ‘saving souls’ is not the ONLY purpose of Christ or the Church is not the same as saying it is not important or a major part of their purpose. Of course it is. But it is not the sole or MOST important purpose of God, it is really just one facet of it.

    There are few books on the Eternal Purpose, and I have those few, and Frank’s is the most accessible, readable, clear, and soaringly lyrical and uplifting one I have read. If you can only afford the time or money for one ‘Christian book’ this year, it should be his.

  15. says

    Frank: I read FETH before I read Pagan… and Reimagining. It definitely helped give the context for your thoughts. Now I am working through all of it in detail. Don’t know that I will ultimately agree with you on everything. If I agree with only 1/2 of it, or even 1/3 of it, though, it will mean huge challenges to my thinking (and doing).

  16. Dan says

    From the article:

    But God never gives us spiritual things. He never gives us virtues, gifts, graces, and truths to acquire. Instead, He only gives us His Son. He gives us Christ to be all things for us.

    Sums it up nicely.

  17. Joel Frederick says

    This portion of the afterward was one of the more impressive portions of the book to me — this is after I decided I liked the first section….

  18. Daniel says

    My “dirty word” comment was more of a reference to the attitude I have encountered time and again within the more “emergent” circles, and not necessarily anything I have seen here. Sorry if it came across like that’s what I was implying…

    But then again, you responded by saying that the Bible doesn’t teach that our “primary calling” is to save the lost, and this confuses me greatly. What is our “primary calling” then? (And is it possible to get an answer without having to go and buy one of your books?)

    I realize that the purpose of the post here was to point back to the centrality of the person of Jesus Christ. But isn’t Christ also our Salvation? “Saving souls” has every bit as much to do with the person of Jesus, but I would have to say that we have made salvation an “it” as well… I too have gone through that “evangelism” phase, involving door-knocking, 4 spiritual laws, and cute little sidewalk gimmicks. But isn’t the problem with those things, NOT about their aim being to save the lost, but rather that they all reduce the person of Christ to a gimmick or a catch-phrase? They turn salvation (and the Savior) into another “it”, and they turn the people into “its” as well, into nothing more than numbers to be tallied at the end of the day…

    How can we say that Jesus didn’t care about saving men and women, when it very clearly says that the message He went around preaching was “Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand…”?

    • says

      Daniel, first, Christ IS Salvation. That’s one point of the article. But He’s far more than that. Second, who said Jesus doesn’t care about saving men? You seem to be reading an awful lot into this chapter that frankly isn’t there. Third, the answer to your main question is God’s Eternal Purpose. I don’t know how to uncork that in a paragraph or two without draining and diluting it or without creating a misunderstanding. It takes a good bit to unravel, hence why I wrote “From Eternity to Here” in the first place.

      If you have no interest in reading the book to learn about the eternal purpose, I’d suggest investing some time into listening to the message I delivered at George Fox Seminary and the second interview with Steve Brown on our website ( They are both free downloads (Lol.) They will give you at least a glimpse into the answer to your question. Exploring the eternal purpose requires time. It’s not a simplistic prospect. We’re dealing with breaking an entire mindset and opening ourselves to a revelation of God’s heartbeat from before creation. It’s anything but shallow. And yes, it goes WAY beyond D.L. Moody’s teaching that saving souls is our primary calling. And it’s far more glorious.

      Take care.

      A general statement to my readers: “From Eternity to Here” is the most important book I’ve ever written. As far as I’m concerned, if someone has read anything else I’ve penned and not that one, they’ve missed the whole point of my work. Just saying … 😉

  19. Anders Branderud says

    Daniel wrote: “When we define “saving the lost” as nothing more than getting someone’s “ticket punched”, or getting them to raise their hand at an altar call or something, then yes, that is selling the person of Jesus short by a long ways. But, without the person of Christ, we really are lost, are we not?”

    I want to comment on on foregivness.

    (le-havdil) How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His forgiveness is outlined in the Bible ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Messiah).

    Anders Branderud

  20. says

    I got the book a while ago and really resonated with the afterward (and with the rest!). The focus on Christ is paramount. Coming from the Reformation tradition, SOLUS CHRISTUS is one of our rallying battle crys, yet, how often we get side-tracked, or fail to realize that the other 4 “Solas” only have meaning in Christ:

    Sola Scriptura – The entire is ultimately about and fulfiled in Jesus
    Sola Fide – it’s only faith in Jesus
    Sola Gacias – Jesus IS the grace of God
    Soli Deo gloria – “every knee shall bow”. All glory to Jesus

  21. says

    Thanks for this most pertinent reminder. All I need is Christ! He is all and is in all. The holy scriptures do not give life; the scriptures point to the One who is our life, Christ the Lord! After Jesus was revealed to the two disciples on the Emmaus road, “They said to each other, `Wasn’t it like a fire burning in us when he talked to us on the road and explained the scriptures to us?`” Luke 24:32, Good News Bible.

    We, the church, don’t need more programs, more pomp, or more “peripherals”: we need more Jesus! And we need him now!

  22. Daniel says

    Yes… So often we have taken the person of Christ and turned Him into nothing more than a slew of “ologies”, humanly-devised concepts that have been segregated from the Son Himself…

    But I still find myself reacting to that characterization of “saving the lost” in the description of “revivalist theology”… (and I write this, with the realization that I may very well be accused of being “dogmatic”, and too obsessed with “doctrine”…) But to me, it seems that the rejection of this idea that our primary call is to save the lost, (which is becoming more and more common today) stems not from the fact that the Bible doesn’t teach this, but that we have accepted such a truncated and pathetic definition of “lost” in our day and age. When we define “saving the lost” as nothing more than getting someone’s “ticket punched”, or getting them to raise their hand at an altar call or something, then yes, that is selling the person of Jesus short by a long ways. But, without the person of Christ, we really are lost, are we not?

    Why does ‘Salvation’ seem to have become almost a dirty word, especially in this “emergent conversation” that is going on today? Aren’t we just reacting to a false concept, a concept that is of our own making in the first place?

    As for me, I hope to see lost people saved, so long as I walk this earth, and the only way they can be saved is by encountering the living, breathing, powerful Son of God! I want to see people enter the kingdom, be adopted into the family, become a part of the Body, to enter into His house… To me, all those things are implied in the word “Salvation”. I see no conflict there…

    To Christ be the Glory in all we do…

    • says

      Daniel, not sure who makes salvation a dirty word. That’s certainly not the point of the piece nor a statement in it. however, to say that saving the lost is our “primary calling” reflects the thinking of D.L. Moody, not the Bible. I hope you’ll read “From Eternity to Here” to explore God’s eternal purpose. It’s not the salvation of souls. That cannot be disputed from a biblical standpoint. There’s something in God’s heart that goes way beyond the meeting of human needs.

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