This post has been revised and converted into a chapter in the book, Beyond Evangelical.
To learn more about the book, click here.
About Frank Viola
Frank Viola is a best-selling author, blogger, speaker, and consultant to authors and writers. His mission is to help serious followers of Jesus know their Lord more deeply so they can experience real transformation and make a lasting impact. To learn more about Frank and his work, go to 20 Years of Projects. To invite Frank to speak at your event, go to his Speaking Page. Due to a new problem with persistent spam that we haven’t figured out how to control, comments are closed for the present time. To contact Frank, use the “Contact” page in the top menu.
N.T. Wright
Intriguing. I look forward to reading the book!
To quibble, You say there is no “better,” but stream 4 is clearly better in your writing, descriptions, and desire to be “post” evangelicalism and it’s baggage. As well, your description of the first three streams having one main element(mind, will, emotions) but know that our command is to love Jesus “with our heart, mind, will and strength.” As well, when you label your 4th stream with “Jesus” you are playing the Christian “trump” card…we got the King, so we are better. If we were playing poker, you just 4 bet the flop.
That said, I agree that evangelicalism is fractured, and there are parts of the first 3 streams evident and each is pulling the label toward their preferred end. But labeling a movement away from the 3 parts as a contrasting “stream” that everyone wants to be part of is just describing what does not exist. If Rachel Held Evans self-describes as being is in your 4th stream and not in the second where her writing is a preeminent voice, then all you have done is describe the future we all want, but nobody has a path to achieve.
I look forward to reading your book.
Thx. I look forward to your response to the book.
Quickly: I think there’s a clear path to each of the streams, actually. I would push back on the idea that stream 4 invokes “the trump card.” All streams claim the supremacy of Jesus and all emphasize an aspect of Him. But Len Sweet and I got a lot of criticism from some camps over our emphasis in “Jesus Manifesto” on the Person of Christ. So it’s not a trump card in everyone’s mind.
How did you find this blog?
What i see in Jonathan Cottrell’s comments is the difference in teaching/preaching/understanding the ‘work of Christ’ vs ‘the person of Christ’. A lot of ‘tract’ evangelism is solely built around the work of forgiveness with little regard as to who Jesus really is. It’s only in discovering Jesus as King that you can really begin to understand why the work he does (victory, grace, forgiveness, mission, etc) even matters. I think we need to dwell on the shortest on gospel definition I can find (below), and then try to keep a big picture view rather than a reductionist view.
“Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel” – 2 tim 2:8
Thanks Chris. Take a look at my post “Rethinking the Gospel” in the archives. It expounds 2 Tim. 2:8, which is often misunderstood.
This is my first read of the blog. It is a refreshing voice for those of us escaping the pastor-centric, big personality, highjacking of the church.
Well, I am certainly honored that you highlighted my comment. It’s funny that you note “one of the push-backs” to what I said, because I thought about clarifying that exact point as I walked away from my computer. You are right–thank you for hitting the nail on the head with this:
“The point…is that other words and concepts often tend to be more dominant in one’s vocabulary and thinking than Jesus Himself.”
Exactly. I believe what Paul wrote to the Corinthians (2 Cor. 11:3) has become defining among most evangelicals (or at least the first three streams you indicated) today:
“But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.”
Thank you, Frank, for so gently and humbly trying to point people back to Him.
Great blog post thanks!
I like that you emphasized its not our business to judge individuals where they are placed on the spectrum. Christ centeredness is about life and reality, much more so than about whether our words and doctrines appear to revolve around Jesus. Thats where many who may speak of Jesus less or have group 1-3 language might actually have more of the reality of christ manifest in their life than those who claim to have moved beyond those groups.
To some extent I feel balance is found in extremes, each stream is in an extreme way trying to highlight something we have minimized. Looking at the wider body of christ and other elements become evident that even these 4 categories do not fully address.
Right. As stated, the four streams aren’t meant to address or represent the entire Body of Christ, but a certain segment of it.
First heard you in Reno, started reading Sparks and others. I find my thinking/processing has shifted from sequential/linear to Opening Up, like a flower–peonies, particularly. God “opens up” Truth. All that was not Jesus–the Way, the Truth and the Life, was outer petals we had to have opened up first to get to the beautiful inner petals of Jesus. The outer petals remain as a context or framing, while the fragrance and sweetness just keeps intensifying.
I just want to thank you. You describe me! I have been looking in all of these directions….loving some characteristics of each one but never fitting into any evangelical categories. No church has ever felt like “home”. Now I feel like I am waking up but I don’t know where I’m going. But I’m ready to make Christ the center of my worship, my life, my breath, my everything and participate in his eternal purpose. I have some deep relationships with some friends that I hope will join with me in this journey beyond evangelicalism. I am waiting…..on Jesus and on them. Thank you for showing me what the problem was!
I’m confused. How is it possible to be in group 4 (Christ) and not simultaneously (or even more so) be in group 3 (Spirit). As far as Christ is concerned, it was better for him to leave and for us to be with the Spirit than it was for us to have him here in the flesh (John 16:7). He also said we would do greater things than these after he had left. Furthermore, Christ said it was better for him to leave and be with the Father because the Father is “greater than I.” (John 14:28) So it seems like Christ would prefer for us to seek the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit than seek himself. Of course, we are called to be like Christ, but what does that mean if it doesn’t mean to seek the Father. So being like Christ means seeking the Father. So saying you are in group 4 is to say you seek the Father as Christ sought the Father through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, right?
Paul: It’s possible to put the Spirit’s powers and gifts on the throne and lose Jesus in the Temple. I dedicate an entire chapter to this in “Revise Us Again.” Also see “Deep Ecclesiology” on the Popular Posts list on the right-hand side bar. Group 3 and Group 4 are *very* different. Be sure to read Part III as well.
First time reader of your blog.
I’ve said many times of late that I [theologically] seem to be from a different planet than so many in present day evangelicalism. But, within the context of of your three posts, I’ve discovered which planet. Group 4: [Beyond Evangelicals] “Jesus” or “Christ” I’m quite encouraged by what you’ve said. Thanks.
I’m right there with you.
I just want to affirm that some of us baby boomers are also sold out to “beyond evangelicalism.” My wife and I have been burned by the institutional mindset, powerless ecclesiology, abuse of power and political behaviors, etc. of “church as we know it.” We and many other boomers are as hungry for what God is doing as are the 20s, 30s, and 40s. The baby boomer monolith may be dominant but it does not include, nor has it ever included many of us. My wife and I and our Simple Church network desire God’s plan and Jesus’ reign in our lives more than anything else. Blessings upon all in The Way.
Mike: As stated in the comments in Part II, of course there are “beyond evangelicals” who are young than 20s and older than 40s. But again, those who have moved beyond evangelical don’t promote a certain view or model of church. And many of them haven’t had the kind of “church” experience you’re describing. That sort of sentiment and experience is *much more common* among people in their 50s and above, I’ve noticed.
I completely agree. I guess I’m just a little worn out by all the tags that go with being a baby boomer. Thanks. You’re truly a gift.
Thanks again Frank! Christ is All.
This subject leaves so much to grasp. Yet, it takes the indwelling as a Spirit controlled individual to surrender to His will. Spirit as in Triune.
I find so often as you mentioned the rock and viewing it from different sides. That God uses those in His fold from different perspectives when surrendered. Often leaving me confused till I look back years later. How it all unfolded for His good. The issue is always, have they surrendered and that is a daily, momemt thing. With that, God uses us from many different perspectives. Where a church or a segment of perspective may be today. May not be tomorrow,or even in the same group, yet, He is never changing, but always accomplishing His purpose.
In my business many call markets chaotic, yet, in it all we find purpose and direction. Which is not chaotic at all, it is just our understanding that often lacks. For His ways are not our ways.
My one word would be “freedom” or “relaxing”, as I picture myself leaning back into Jesus’ arms. Don’t know which type I am.
Of course there have always been those who were in love with Christ Himself, preeminently! It’s not a movement. There has always been a faithful remnant. They might be unknown in their generation.
I read last year about a guy who does a whiteboard evangelism training. He asks the group to name all the essential things a person needs to know to be a Christian.
You can imagine the usual things: sin, sinner, cross, Christ’s death and rez, grace, faith, etc. etc.
But invariably no one lists: Jesus.
You have to know Jesus. Period. You can know everything else and miss Him. The other points are essential to, but only in terms of helping you get to Jesus and gain your very life in Him.
Frank, I really enjoy your stuff. I found T.A. Sparks years ago, and Fromke too. It radically shifted my paradigm.
Frank,
Bullet point two under Further Observations cannot be highlighted enough. Thank you for continuing to beat that drum. Also, taking pains to be as clear as possible such as in the last bullet point is very helpful. I am encouraged that more and more people are allowing Christ to take center stage in all things. May that continue and overflow into all streams.
It’s interesting that I seem to have ended up in the “Beyond Evangelical” camp as I don’t think any other label fits.
The thing I noticed from your post that I keep articulating is that I really don’t know of a church that wants to teach an “indwelling life of Christ”.
They have no problem teaching the rules or extolling the gifts.
Fortunately, I have people in my life that do live “indwelled” and have made a huge difference to me in my walk with Christ.