Whatever one wishes to say about Rob Bell, he’s a marketing genius [Frankie V. tips hat to Robbie B]. Last year, Bell wrote a monster best-seller on the subject of hell called Love Wins. He set it off with a masterful “bait-and-hook” video trailer. The bait was taken, and the book caught fire . . . both kinds!
I have gone on record saying that if you’re a Christian author and you want to sell a non-fiction bestseller, you’d be wise to write on one of three topics: (1) Hell (2) Heaven (3) Christians are Too Lukewarm – They Aren’t Doing Enough to Preach the Gospel, To Make Disciples, To Make the World a Better Place – So They Need to Get Off Their Lazy Duffs and Get to Work (that title is a tad long, but you get the idea).
Write a book on those topics and you’ll have a very good chance at hitting the NY Times Bestseller List.
I’m being cereal. Dead cereal.
Anyways . . . since the release of Rob Bell’s book on hell, many have asked me what I thought about the controversial volume. (I’m always surprised by questions like that since [cough] hell isn’t one of my passions or specialties.)
My Take
In a blog post I published last year, I humored my friends and summed up my feelings on the question of hell and the controversy surrounding Rob Bell’s book. Here’s what I wrote:
At the moment, countless evangelicals are immersed in a debate about the existence and nature of hell. Does it exist? If so, what is it like? How long will it last? And who will go there . . . and why?
A fair segment of the younger people who are engaged in this debate assume that this dialogue is new. But many of them aren’t aware that the debate is ancient (centuries old), and it resurfaces on the mainstream Christian landscape every now and then. The 90s was one such time. The book Four Views on Hell originally came out in 1992 when four scholars intelligently and graciously debated one another on their diverging views of hell. (If you are interested in this subject, I’d recommend this book.) I’d also suggest Leonard Sweet’s podcast episode on the subject.
In the midst of the recent blood-up-to-the-horse’s-bit online war that’s been raging over this issue, I’ve been asked numerous times to share my view on hell. So here it is (the following statements were Tweets of mine, hence their brevity.)
The greatest Christian minds differ on the NATURE, PURPOSE and SUBJECTS of hell (subjects = who exactly will go there). But whatever we can say about it, the NT is clear on two points:
1) it exists, and 2) it’s undesirable.
Jesus Christ wins because He was willing to lose ultimately for our sake. What a Lord! #Winning
I am not a universalist.
The task of those who preach: To unveil the stunning greatness of Christ. If people see His beauty, He is irresistible.
“Jesus is not one of many ways to approach God, nor is He the best of several ways; He is the only way.” ~ A. W. Tozer
If there’s life on other planets & they need a Redeemer, Jesus of Nazareth is it.
Some people will pass out after they see who makes it in the end. Angels will be running around all over heaven with smelling salts to wake them up (Luke 13:28, example). [I wrote this line in Reimagining Church.]
“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross.” ~ H. Richard Niebuhr, summarizing the gospel of liberal theology.
Here’s my concluding statement on hell: When I’m finished exploring and declaring the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ with my brothers and sisters, I’ll get around to dissecting the anatomy of hell.
‘Nuff said.
Incidentally, a few people wrote me flaming emails condemning me for not condemning Rob Bell’s book – a book I never read. A few others flamed me for not defending Bell’s book – a book I never read.
Sorry, but I don’t review books I’ve never read. And neither should you. Afterall, it’s been reported that I’m the author of “the most dangerous book people have never read.”
N.T. Wright’s Take
Two months after I published my post, N.T. Wright weighed-in on the debate. You’ll see that Wright makes many of the same points:
My usual counter question is: “Why are Americans so fixated on hell?” Far more Americans ask me about hell than ever happens in my own country. And I really want to know, why is it that the most prosperous affluent nation on earth is really determined to be sure that they know precisely who is going to be frying in hell and what the temperature will be and so on.
There’s something quite disturbing about that actually, especially when your nation and mine has done quite a lot in the last decade or two to drop bombs on people elsewhere and to make a lot of other people’s lives hell. So I think there are some quite serious issues about why people want to ask that question.
Having said that, I am not a universalist. I’ve never been universalist. Someone quoted a theologian saying, “I’m not a universalist, but maybe God is.” That’s kind of a neat way of saying, “Ok, there’s stuff in Scripture which is a little puzzling about this, and we can’t be absolutely sure all down the line.”
But it seems to me that the New Testament is very clear that there are people who do reject God and reject what would have been His best will for them, and God honors that decision. How that works and how you then deal with the questions which result I have written about at some length.
I don’t think myself that Rob Bell has quite taken the same line that I did in Surprised by Hope. I haven’t actually had the conversation with Rob since his book was published. So, one of these days, we will and we’ll have that one out.
I do think it’s good to stir things up because so many people, as I say, particularly in American culture, really want to know the last fine-tuned details of hell. And it seems to be part of their faith, often a central part of their faith, that a certain number of people are simply going to go to hell and we know who these people are.
I think Rob is saying, “Hey wait a minute. Start reading the Bible differently. God is not a horrible ogre who is just determined to fry as many people as He can forever. God is actually incredibly generous and gracious and wonderful and loving and caring. And if you paint a picture of God which is other than that, then you’re producing a monster and that has long-lasting effects in Christian lives and in the church.”
Rob Bell Meets Jon Zens
I don’t know Rob Bell and vice versa. I’ve never read any of his books, and I doubt he’s read any of mine. However, my esteemed friend and colleague Jon Zens has just released a unique response to Rob Bell’s book which he curiously titled Christ Minimized. 
I read the prepublication manuscript because Jon asked me to (very nicely with cherries on top). Three observations on Zen’s new book:
- Anything Zens writes is worth reading. Even if you disagree with him, you’ll have quite a task on your hands providing cogent answers as to why you disagree. Jon Zens is an incisive and compelling writer. For that reason, a few of his titles made my Best 100 Christian Books Ever Written list.
- If you believe Rob Bell’s book is “gospel” or you are convinced it’s Grade-A certified heresy, Zens’ book will throw light on the subject.
- Not a few Christian authors have jumped on the Rob Bell bandwagon, publishing their own titles in response to “Love Wins.” (I’ve not read those books either, by the way.) Zens, who I understand has read these other volumes, tells me that his response explores the subject from a different mountain.
That said, I commend to you Jon Zens’ newest release: Christ Minimized: A Response to Rob Bell’s LOVE WINS.
My overall statement on the book: Whether you agree or disagree with everything Jon says, his new book is an important contribution to the discussion. In addition, Jon is one of the most assessable authors I know. So you can dialogue with him directly about his book and tell him exactly where he is in error. Right Jon?, (Cough). 
I hope Jon’s book sells as many copies as Love Wins has. You can aid that hope by clicking the “Tweet,” Facebook (“Like/Share”), and “StumbleUpon” buttons below. And of course, by buying a copy or two for your ole’ bad self.
A NOTE ABOUT COMMENTING: For the sake of those of you who are new to the blog, you may want to read the Blog Manager’s rules for moderation before you comment. She doesn’t approve comments that don’t meet her guidelines. Just sayin’ . . .
Recommended Books on the Subject:
Christ Minimized: A Response to Rob Bell’s LOVE WINS in paperback
Christ Minimized: A Response to Rob Bell’s LOVE WINS in Kindle
Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World
Recent Posts:
My Interview with N.T. Wright: Wright Under Fire
Beyond Evangelical: Part II – Four Divergent Streams (20s, 30s, and 40s)
Beyond Evangelical: Part III – Answers to Questions
Frank,
Thank you for this post. I just finished reading Zens’ book and enjoyed it very much. Jon is charitable, yet at the same time directly assesses the claims made by Bell. The best aspect of “Christ Minimized?” is that Jon focuses so heavily on scripture. It’s a short, pleasurable read that will benefit anyone wondering about what Bell has said and how it stacks up against the truths of the bible.
My hope is enough of a dust cloud has formed over the issue of hell for many people that they will realize there are several questions that can’t be answered conclusively and its not central to the faith so we can move onto what is central.
I’ve had a lot of great dialogue with people who no longer see hell or the fate of the unbeliever as the driving force behind salvation and the gospel.
Honestly though it seems to me there is still a lot of fear of being labelled a universalist, much more than being labelled as someone who agrees with eternal torment/separation or annihilation. Until that shifts its no surprise authors and leaders in particular christian streams tread carefully.
What Rob Bell and others have achieved is given permission for many people to publicly say theyre just not sure without being completely invalidated or left to feel theyre alone. Its a good start.
Jon’s book takes the discussion further and deeper. It should be read along with Rob’s book.
Thank you for making me add two books to my long wish list at Amazon. Yes, your blog did BLOW MY MIND OPEN! I was anticipating either positive or negative review of the book, turned out that there is NEITHER!
That shows you are living example of principle of no judge, based on Matthew 7:1-5! Great Book Review!
Another brilliant post! You’re on a roll since you returned. I’ve followed the hoopla on Rob’s book on both sides and this is by far the best thing I’ve read on the subject. I’ll get Jon’s book. Thanks!
Why do you say you do not read Bell but suggest we do? which part of the bible do we tear out and throw away? [The rest of this post was removed as it violated the Rules for Moderation ~ The Blog Manager]
Hu? I beg your pardon. There’s nothing in the post that tells people “to read Bell.” The post recommends Jon Zens’ book which is *a response* to Bell.
But it does seem fair to me to question why one would recommend reading a response to a book and not the book itself. How else does one know whether or not Jon Zens addresses what Rob Bell actually wrote?
Zens’ quotes the book. But goes beyond it to discuss the *issues*. I recommend it only for those interested in a GRACIOUS response to Bell that doesn’t attack him personally *and* that gives an interesting take on the issues revolving around the book. It’s been endorsed by Mike Morrell, a supporter of Bell’s book.
“It’s been endorsed by Mike Morrell, a supporter of Bell’s book.” This is very powerful statement! That shows the Christianity is STILL UNITED in spite of potential disagreements!
Mark, you make a fair point, but there have also been writers (Francis Chan, for instance) who *have* read Bell’s book(s) and deliberately misquoted them or taken them out of context – and this is not my opinion here, Chan specifies that he has done just that in the footnotes to chapter 1 of his response to “Love Wins,” “Erasing Hell.” So just having read the book doesn’t always guarantee a fair appraisal of said book (as Frank himself can attest).
That said, I am looking forward to Zens take on the issues and arguments, along with Michael Wittmer’s “Christ Alone,” which offers a more traditionally-reformed approach to Bell’s book and looks at how Rob tends to lean in the book more towards existentialism. Exciting stuff.
I received this book in the mail this week and read it in one sitting. Jon is very insightful, and graciously shares what he sees as good and bad in Love Wins, but sticks to the Scriptures and avoids any character bashing. Jon gives the reader plenty to chew on without being forceful with his own conclusions.
Also, Jon sent a copy of the book to Bell and asked for his comments (stated in the book), which I think reveals the heart from which Jon is writing.
Great post, Frank. You and N.T. Wright have the right approach. Refreshing to read something that pushes back on Bell without skewering him personally. I love the humor too by the way “I’m cereal” LOL. The pagan c. video is hysterical. Love it everytime I see it.
I love this post. You nailed it with this statement: “When I’m finished exploring and declaring the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ with my brothers and sisters, I’ll get around to dissecting the anatomy of hell.”
Oh, and I also agree with your non-fiction best-seller categories.
Ditto, Frank!
Whatever Jon Zens may have written in his book (and I love some of his stuff, especially his defense of Pagan Christianity), I feel that the title is rather unfortunate. I see universal redemption as Christ’s ultimate sovereign triumph over every human heart. He has the power to draw (lit. drag) all men to himself, to undo Adam’s curse for all humanity affected by it in their own order (1 Cor. 15) and the whole universe will be reconciled to God through His blood (1 Col. 1).
If this is not complete, then I’m sorry, but I simply cannot see Him as fully, completely sovereign over everything. But if it does happen in the consummation of all things, I know His power to be over absolutely everything, able to overcome all human unwillingness (which we see as a strong theme in scripture).
This:
“Christ Minimized? challenges such convictions, and concludes among other things that ‘Paul did not comfort the afflicted saints by saying that in the future their tormentors would be reconciled to God. Rather, he comforted them by saying they would be “paid back” for touching God’s anointed ones.’”
May suggest that he covers 2 Thess. 1:9?
Well, the Greek does not have “away.” So the literal translation would state that they will suffer FROM the presence of the Lord, which makes sense given the imagery of holy fire found just prior to that. What makes it “eternal” is that it is from God. The same presence that is relief for the repentant and brings times of refreshing in Acts 3:19 (and notice that the word “away” has not been added to the text there before “from”), brings torment to the stubbornly unrepentant.
So there is no hope for the persecutor, because God’s presence can only ever be torment for them. Right?
But, wait a minute! Peter was talking to persecutors in Acts 3:19… and not only that, but those who had crucified JESUS! And if I remember right, Paul used to be… Saul of Tarsus, and he persecuted Christians as well.
Sheesh. Well, I guess there’s at least hope for some. I wonder why God doesn’t knock ALL the persecutors off their high horses… but who are we to predict what He will or will not do? Unless He has revealed it…
Like yourself I have not read these books but only the Words of Christ concerning Hell. Like many things in the NT it seems clear beyond doubt that Christ and the apostles did not speak in vague uncommittal terms about Hell but clearly in a manner that all could understand. To minimise the eternity of Hell and punishment would seem to minimise the eternity of the life promised. While im glad you are clear on not being a Universalist – which of course is such a dangerous teaching – I still do not know what you do believe. It seems in recent years that it has become popular almost expected to be vague, unsure or hesitent in making clear statements like the apostles of the NT did so readily. Do you mind me asking where you do stand on this issue? Or is it just that you cannot with conviction say for certain at this time?
Joe: Already answered it clearly in the post. Go back to where it says “The greatest Christian minds . . . ” and read on. It’s all there.
I am indeed very glad that you do agree with Christ and the teaching of the apostles in believing Hell exists and that it is unpleasant but as I said it seems beyond ‘not being a universalist’ all else is vague. As im sure you realise your not stating any clear doctrinal position. Although disagreeing with universalism you seem tolerant of people proclaiming it on this blog. In Mat 25:46 Jesus said ‘And these shall go away into everlasting (aiōnios) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting (aiōnios) life.’ Aiōnios = perpetual, eternal, everlasting. If we change such words in relation to punishment then they must change for life as well. I have no delight in the subject of Hell but if Christ spoke of such this is serious indeed. It is not a light matter. Any minimising of the clear teaching of Christ and the apostles of course deeply concerns me and yet this seems acceptable in todays church. I must admit that I really get concerned as to where we are heading in Beyond Evangelical if we must be vague to accommodate all views. I say that with all due respect. Thanks for notice of the book by Jon Zens I will purchase and am sure it will make more clear exactly where you are coming from.
Joe: Read Angela’s comment as it speaks directly to what you’re saying here and how you’re a using the word “vague.” Further, I suggest you read “The 4 Views on Hell” book very carefully. It will give you a broader perspective by which to understand the nuance of what N.T. Wright and I have said on the subject.
Joe, you said:
“it seems clear beyond doubt that Christ and the apostles did not speak in vague uncommittal terms about Hell but clearly”
Please point to a single reference in the entire volume of Acts where Hell is pointed to or even insinuated. Over 30 yrs of ministry in a hellenistic culture (that believed in Hades) and not a word.
Or what about Paul’s 13 epistles? Not a peep.
Hell doesn’t appear in John’s gospel or in the entire OT (the word “sheol” is used as a place of the dead, for both good and bad until the day of judgment).
Jesus makes 11 references to ‘hell’ in Matthew, Mark and Luke, but closer examination shows he was most often referring to ‘Gehenna’ – outside the walls of Jerusalem. Not some burning place that souls are tormented for eternity.
I think annihilationism is most consistent with the Bible.
Consider: if the apostles never preached hell, either they didn’t understand what Jesus said, or they were irresponsible and disobedient.
You and N.T. Wright have answered this question wisely. Judgement is real but we can’t know the details because the bible isn’t clear enough on it. The 4 Views book really opened my eyes to this. Great post.
I did read Bell’s book and, like most Christian literature, I found things I liked and things I didn’t. I am going to get Zens’ book based on your description. Like you, however, I find the debate over the existence and nature of Hell an annoying interruption in the much more pleasing study of the nature of Grace. That hasn’t always been the case.
I used to help people understand the nature of Hell as the complete and utter absence of the presence of God (as described by CS Lewis) which seemed to be a very effective description. Then one day, talking to one of my younger Goth friends about Hell, his response was: “So how is that different from this life?”
It hit me at that point that for many people, especially in sophisticated urban areas like SF, many people already feel separated from God — even if they are not — and it behooves Christians to make more of an effort to demonstrate and describe a loving God before getting into the consequences of not having a relationship with him.
Great Post Frank! I ordered Jon’s book yesterday. Can hardly wait to read it. Luv your humor!
Why is that some people insist on demanding detailed answers on questions that the bible doesn’t answer clearly or gives no details on? Saying we can’t know for sure and being ‘vague’ are two different things. I want to thank you and NT Wright for being very direct on the question and not being vague at all. You both stated what you believe on the issue and left the rest to the unknown. Keep writing stuff of this quality. Have to check out Jon’s book.
Before reading Rob Bell’s “Love Wins” and Mark Galli’s “God Wins,” a response to Bell, I helped proof Edward Fudge’s exhaustive, scholarly work: “The Fire That Consumes, A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment,” 3rd Edition, 2011. This 417 page book has a 15 page bibliography and an 18 page, two-column listing of ancient documents referenced, including all the Bible’s citations.
As practicing lawyer and theologian, Fudge argues for his point via the burden of proof approach used in presenting cases before a civil court jury: a preponderance of the evidence. First published in 1982, this book challenges the traditional view of hell as eternal, conscious torment – an idea Plato espoused.
Frank, I sat across the dinner table from you at George Fox and now wish I’d read “Pagan Christianity” before that encounter. Your watershed, well-documented book describes many other traditions that distract new believers from becoming disciples who follow what Jesus commanded and taught.
Thanks, Mike. I’m not sure if you’re a subscriber of this blog or not. But if you aren’t, you may be interested in this recent post: http://frankviola.org/2012/01/22/the-artists-favorite-work/
I hope Fudge’s foreword will provoke you to pick up Jon’s book.
Here’s Fudges book (“The Fire That Consumes”) for those interested (who are reading this comment):
Thanks Mike, and Frank and Jon — for helping spread the view between the two extremes of universalism and everlasting torment — namely, the thoroughly biblical view that the wages of sin really is DEATH and that eternal life in Christ is the alternative to PERISHING. While THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES is a scholarly tome, I have just finished writing HELL: A FINAL WORD, a narrative book aimed at the broad reading public, expected this summer from Leafwood Publications.
“When I’m finished exploring and declaring the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ with my brothers and sisters, I’ll get around to dissecting the anatomy of hell.”
Fair enough, but please realize that for some of us a discussion of the “unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ” is impossible so long as Jesus is deemed incapable of actually achieving what He set out to do. Unsearchable riches are great and all, but if Jesus is unable or unwilling to reconcile ALL things and bring those riches to ALL creatures they lose quite a lot of their appeal.
I am COMPLETELY on board with your efforts to restore Christ to his position of supremacy over all things. Part of that restoration, in the opinion of many of us, must include dealing with the question of Universal Reconciliation of ALL things in Christ.
No need to toss out Hell. I’m sure there are a lot of things that need to be burned up. Lots of me needs to be burned up. Doesn’t mean the burning has to last forever or result in total annihilation though.
I recommend copious amounts of George MacDonald. Start with his Unspoken Sermon called Justice.
Dan, thanks for your comment. Two things:
1) When people say things like “unsearchable riches, yea yea, but we must go on to other things” … the first thought that comes to mind is, “you and I are not talking about the same thing when we say ‘unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ.’” I deal with this very issue in “Epic Jesus.” Consider it . . . it’s a wrinkle.
2) Jon Zens *does deal* with the reconciliation of all things in his little tome. And so have many other scholars, like F.F. Bruce and N.T. Wright, who both were featured on this blog recently. They have dealt with it, yet they came to different conclusions than Origen, Bell, and MacDonald. All told: I hope you’ll read Jon’s book. Unlike some other authors who weighed into this subject, Jon is very accessible, so it would be great for you to test his ideas by your own and hash it out with him.
I’ll buy tickets!
Frank, thanks for commenting back. I can’t say how much I appreciate that. And don’t for a second think I’m asking you to stop what you’re on about and “solve” these other issues first. What you’re doing in re-focusing us on the Eternal Purpose and the Supremacy of Christ is incredibly important and I have been incredibly blessed by it. I will read Jon’s book.
Thanks again,
Dan
Thanks Dan. Btw/ I did get the link. But the Blog Manager doesn’t publish any kind of links unless the post specifically asks for them (see the Rules for Moderation). Yet I do get them. Will check it out.
On a somewhat related note, I’ll be asking for blog links in the future, so bloggers will surely want to subscribe. We’ll be doing a promote-your-blog-day post.
When Rob’s book came out, many people wanted to “discuss it with me” (which is code for “complain”). My first question to them was “Have you read it?”
They would invariably say “No” and I would decline to continue the conversation until they did so.
I never have been able to have a dialogue about the book.
Peter: Welcome. Jon would be happy to dialogue with you about it. I think you’ll appreciate his book.
I’m tellin’ ya Frank, you REALLY have to stop recommending these books!
I haven’t read the recent “Searching Together” yet, but I’ll start it tonight waiting for “Christ Minimized”. I highly recommend getting a “Prime” membership to Amazon.
I have listened to Love Wins (Audio Book) Several times now, and I have to say Christ is anything but minimized in this book. It attempts to answer questions that the world has including many believers. I have not read Zen’s book, but the the title is a little unfair. I approached the book reluctantly as I was pretty fundamental, the same way I approached I approached Pagan Christianity, but was extremely blessed by both.
I think the book would allow people to fall deeper in love with Jesus
Doug: Personally, I think it’s unfair to judge a title without reading the book. For instance, “Pagan Christianity?” was misjudged by many Christians who never read it. Some assumed that George and I were calling Christians “pagans” . . . others assumed we attacked Christmas and Easter (not a word about either in the book) . . . other assumed we were saying that everything Christian is really pagan. None of which are true. Read the book, then decide what Jon is saying and not saying by the title, and if he’s correct. Not fair to do otherwise, eh?
Frank, I agree with that, it is unfair. But if his book is a rebuttal of Bell’s book, and he calls it Christ Minimized I think it is safe to say he is saying Bell minimized Christ’s glory. Maybe I am wrong, I will read it and make my own assessment. Love all your writings bro.
No mind can conceive what God has prepared for us, and that includes both reward and punishment. You’ve got streets of gold on the one hand and a blazing fire on the other. This is God’s imagery, not ours, and it sufficiently illustrates the difference between the desirable and the detrimental, between that which has been refined (judged, if you wish) and that which hasn’t. The reason for the ambiguity has to do with our limited resources to grasp the unfathomable, and so God uses a pretty basic picture to spare us the trouble of wild speculation. I think we miss it if we try and get backstage. We haven’t been given a pass. We are intended to watch the show, learn from it and prepare ourselves accordingly.
I have read Rob Bell’s book, and I have this to say about it: He has some good to say about the hear-and-now. His views on the there-and-then are shaky, at best.
The work of Christ toward our ultimate salvation is certainly minimized by Rob’s ‘nobody goes to hell’ dream. Though he challenges our life’s ambitions in the earth (which seems good on the surface), he says little of hearing the voice of the Spirit of Christ and doing what He is doing.
Each of us must search his/her own heart and genuinely look at his/her own life to see if we are in the faith. When that issue is settled, we can pursue with liberty and passion the riches of Jesus Christ, the full expression of God.
I love Wright’s response to Bell. In fact I love just about anything Wright does besides hearing him deliver a talk (a bit too monotone for me). I do recommend everyone that is curious to read Love Wins. I know some that just read the arguments against the book rather than the source. Love Wins isn’t evil nor should it sway, it should open discussion. Just as Viola has Surprised by Hope (NT Wright) as a top 100 book to get, I can recommend this book as a 23 year old Youth Pastor. Definitely the best book on the end times you can get. It’s easy to get caught up in popular controversies and take sides. It’s harder to do research for yourself and accept the fact people believe differently from you. Though I haven’t read Jon Zens books yet, I hope it brings out some great points. I did buy a response to Love Wins by a very popular Christian author/pastor and it was unfortunately mediocre.
Frank, LOVE your response to Bell. It was brilliant. The best response I’ve seen. Wright’s is good too. He basically says the same thing but from a British perspective. I’ll get Jon’s book. Thank you for some great posts this week.
Rob Bell does not claim to be a universalist either, yet so many people say that he is. Bell also claims to not have all the answers. He is asking questions more than answering them. He also said the book is just his contribution to the conversation that has been going on for a long time (centuries probably). He is not claiming his book is GOSPEL, at all. I’ve never seen such a fuss over a little book in all my life – it’s just one book of millions or trillions. I think Bell himself is surprised at the fuss. It’s ridiculous!
Though we all tend to have unique “passions” it is interesting to think about why Hell is such a favorite topic of some Christians. I certainly believe it literally exists and is as the Word describes it…but we should probably dwell most on what Jesus dewlt on most. The main thing about Hell that matters to me is that it is the absence of GOD, therefore if my attention is focused on being “within GOD and He within me” then I don’t have to give much though to Hell…and that leaves me with the desire to share with others to be “with GOD” not “escape Hell.” However, believers do need to have a true and accurate view of Hell since God has shared that truth with us.
Dear Sir,
First a comment: Thank you for writing “From Here to Eternity” I was really blessed by it. Next, a question: Why write about “Love Wins” without having read it when it is so easy to read- you read a lot so it couldn’t be too hard to read it (or listen to it on audio which I did) then tell us plainly what you think about it.
I would like to read Zen’s book, but only because you recommend him (it seems scary to read anything “in response to” like it might serve to tear at a foundation). It should be noted that I was wandering/sleeping/backsliding in faith until I listened to C.S. Lewis’ “The Four Loves”, Rob Bell’s “Love Wins”, then read Brian McLaren’s “The Secret Message of Jesus”, and your “From Eternity to Here”. In that order. Since that three month period (I was also reading the Proverbs, Psalm 103 and Wuest’s New Testament) I feel as though I have had life breathed into me and I am a person again. – Thanks -
Justin: As stated in the post, I’m not interested in this subject matter enough to read “Love Wins.” Right now, I have a stack of over 50 books that I’ve been asked to read, so I have to be selective, I’m afraid. However, many have asked me what I thought about the subject of hell, so I posted my answer. And I have read Jon Zens’ book only because he asked me to. Thanks for your kind words on “From Eternity.”
While I have never exchanged any personal communication with Rob Bell I do find myself somewhat unwittingly drawn to understand his motivations. But, I probably tend to search out people motivations.
I have not finished “Love Wins” (I am maybe a third of the way through it and I am not sure when I will finish it). However, I have read several of Rob’s books, listened to a few podcasts from Mar’s Hill and used several of his Nooma videos in youth ministry. I sense an overarching theme: Rob enjoys raising provocative ideas that challenge what I would call the “black and white” of American evangelicalism.
I am in my 47th year and my past would likely cause most to associate me strongly with American evangelicalism (at least to many political pollsters). They might be right and they might be wrong. I am starting to wonder myself.
I have had a few friends and a few guys I work start conversations regarding Rob’s latest work and this amazing polarizing aura immediately filled the room each time. It is as if we (evangelicals) feel we have to take a side (make a stand, defend our position, or what have you) on anything that seems to matter. That position has to be one way or the other.
It is this black or white world we have created that makes me wonder, “…do I want to be associated with evangelicals in that way any longer.” I may be a perfect target for Rob Bell’s marketing machine. I think I get his point.
What is wrong with questioning things? Why does everything need to be settled in debate? Why are we so afraid to reopen some cans that we closed long enough ago that they are a bit rusty? Why would a suggestion like, “the Bible, as we know it today, may not really contain all of the writings God intended as scripture…”, create a firestorm if it was asked by the right person?
I read a Yahoo story that the gay community is upset with this actress, Cynthia Nixon, because she said she made a choice to be gay. They do not want that lifestyle to be a choice because they have worked so hard to propagandize that “they are born this way”. If it is questioned they believe it weakens there position.
My supposition is that evangelicals (generally, speaking) tend to want issues to be settled, for good. The more emotionally charged the issue, the more settled they want it to be. If someone, in a Cytnhia Nixon like manner, attempts to reopen something evangelicals want to be “case closed” it creates a firestorm.
I may be naive. I actually believe Rob Bell has noble intentions. He is however, probably interested in creating the largest audience possible. It seems to me, oh yeah I watched a couple of video interviews after Love Wins came out, that Rob is still surprised by the strong response that asking questions creates.
Perhaps it is not just asking questions but the suggestion that maybe we do not have all of the answers that creates turmoil. If they are at all willing, he gets people talking about stuff at a level they never would have otherwise. Evangelicals do not see it this way. Questions without firm answers weaken our position as believers.
If Rob asks questions and throws out a few suggested answers based on his reading of scripture he must be labeled (universalist, liberal, etc.). He must be on one side or the other.
Frankly, I like the questions and the discussion. I even like the fact that we do not know the answers (though many of my evangelical friends would not agree). I do not understand how Christians can assume an attack posture (heard and read some nasty stuff on this subject) over a book. Be riled up, be passionate…but, be kind and gentle.
By the way, Frank, I do like the thoughts your blog title evokes. I have followed what some call the emergent movement of Christianity at a cursory level. Call it what they will…when we stop being able to ask the really hard questions in this deep journey we are on without throwing others overboard I think we are on the wrong ship.
My Take: Jesus Christ is the only begotten of “the God” that created all that is…the only way to God is through Christ…question that with me all you want…you will find passionate discourse, tears, hopefully, an underlying gentle spirit and in the end “Love Wins”. I do not have all the answers and I do not know all that happens after life on this side…that’s up to God- be creative with me, I can be open minded about it.
I am ok admitting that I don’t know if those that do no accept Christ burn in a place called Hell, without end. That answer is “higher than my paygrade” allows. I am not sure enough that it is not the result that it would keep me from helping others find Christ. However, that is not my motivation in sharing Christ.
He is Life. He lives in me. He has made me willing to lose at a level I never thought I would with, a desire to lose at a level I will probably never reach, so that others can win through Him. That marks my Way and leads me to Truth.
Blessings!
Brent: Thx. for the comment. Have you read “Beyond Evangelical: Part II and III?” You may want to have a look, given some of your remarks. One of the plagues in the Christian world is to commit the relationship-destroying sin of judging another person’s motivations without wincing. If one wishes to know *why* someone does something, simply ask them and accept their answer. That’s how we would want to be treated (Matt. 7:12). I can’t presume to know Bell’s motivations, or anyone else’s; love thinks no evil (1 Cor. 13). So I believe the best about his motives, and so should every other believer. Evaluating a teaching or action, however, is a different matter. I will speak more about this in the future on this blog (addressed it in detail in “Revise Us Again.”).
Frank, I read the 4 views on hell book you recommended and after reading that I’m really not interested in spending time reading Bell’s book. What you wrote here about hell and what NT Wright wrote too sums it up for me. I’d rather spend my time reading other things that are more down to earth and relavent to the here and now. Finished Revise Us Again and it’s excellent.
I’ve read Love Wins and am going through it again. Reading it has lead me to the book “Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World” and now currently “A Wideness in God’s Mercy – The Finality of Jesus Christ in a World of Religions” by Clark Pinnock. This path is certainly putting all my evangelical dogma into a bullpen and poking holes in places I never suspected. I love the journey and the discovery along the way. Thanks Frank for allowing this discussion here on your blog!
Hi Frank – I’m getting ready to read Love Wins, and have ordered Jon’s book. Can’t wait!
I have TONS of appreciation, affection, and respect for you through your writings. To me, you are like a skilled and experienced army surgeon who risked life and limb for king and kingdom to patch-up a mortally wounded soldier (me) on the battlefield. And I know I’m one among thousands. We never met, or made friends; but your skill and experience have healed me in several deep ways for which I’m eternally grateful. You’ve helped me go on from the bloody field to develop a life of freedom to walk in the kingdom and more closely with our Lord.
You’ve done a masterful job dealing with issues that trip-up and trouble so many Christians in their pursuit of Jesus Christ. Since the thought of our Lord torturing people in literal never-ending fire is understandably troubling for so many and inconsistent with His character, I do wish you’d hit this subject of hell with the same vigor as these other issues. But I completely respect your freedom not to deal with it in the same depth. However, I totally disagree that it’s some sort of “side issue”. It’s as damaging to our understanding of the Lord’s character, essence, and plans for His creation as many of the other topics you’ve covered. Holiness and justice are central to His character and beliefs and plans. He said as we believe, so are we. As we believe, so shall we live.
So, we are what we believe and we will live out those beliefs; bcs this is how we were created to live, like our creator lives. True, intimate relationship is based on knowing someone to the core, and right down to what they believe and how they live. Since holiness and justice are a central part of our Lord’s character, His beliefs about judgement and punishment are not side issues. They are central issues to truly knowing Him and how He lives and how He plans to deal with His creation on a most central level; sin. How can someone intimately know another, and be completely mistaken or confused about a character issue so profound? Would someone with the power and will to redeem all people choose to torture 99% of them for eternity instead? The depth of our relationship depends on intimacy, and intimacy depends on knowing one’s character to the point of actions.
The poles of this issue are so profound and far apart, I believe it speaks pointedly to the struggle between our spirit relationship with Christ vs our soul relationship to Him. His life inside us IS NOT bearing witness to His never-ending, fiery torture of those He created. This hell-doctrine entered into mainstream Christianity much like many of the items you covered in Pagan Christianity; from pagan religions. It is not the teaching of the OT, of the NT, of most of the early church, nor many of the church fathers.
Believing that the Lord is going to torture a majority of the people who have ever lived in a literal, never-ending, fiery torture chamber is akin to waking up and realizing that the father who loved you, doted on you, and raised you is Adolf Hitler. While he was away from home, he was in the business of torturing everyone who disagreed with him. Only Christ would be worse since the suffering of Hitler’s victims ended at death. Christ would keep them alive, so as to experience the unimaginable pain forever. THIS IS NOT OUR LORD! AND IS TOTALLY SLANDEROUS TO HIS CHARACTER! His Advocate-life in me cries out to expose the lie that His scales of justice are so ridiculously unbalanced. That His own precious people would believe that He will exact a punishment so outrageously out of balance is detrimental to the expression of Jesus as Savior.
BTW, I’m not a universalist either. There is clearly future judgment and punishment coming and Jesus is the ONLY way, truth and life for us all. What I do believe is the nature and duration of His punishments need to be clarified to better know Him and His purposes for all of mankind. Things to consider: in the garden, it was about life and death, not heaven or hell. In the gospels, Jesus’ payment for the sin’s of the world was death on the cross; not never-ending torment in hell. In Romans, the wages of sin is death not hell. The word “hell” is not in the scriptures; it’s hades, gehenna, tartarus. These are specific places created with specific purposes. Hades is the abode of the dead, not a torture chamber. Our Lord’s fires are not for torture, but for cleansing and refining. As in Adam, all die; so in Christ all shall live. ALL MEANS ALL. (1 Cor 15:22). Regarding “eternal”, “never ending”, etc in the bible, we have to dig deeper than Strong’s. It does not mean never-ending. It’s an age; an undefined period of time, with beginning and END.
Thanks again for all you do Frank, and for the open dialogue of matters pertaining to who Jesus Christ really is! We have an unimaginably BIG Lord!
Any thorough research in the scriptures will reveal that both the OT and the NT clearly state that when we die we go into the grave and stay there until out resurrection at Christ’s return. Those who are saved are resurrected and join Him in heaven and 1000 years later, the unsaved are resurrected and cast into the lake of fire which is the second DEATH. Hence; no hell in the traditional sense. The term hell simply means the grave. Research into church and secular history shows that the idea of hell was invented by the Egyptians, taken over by the Greeks, expounded by Plato and brought into the Christian Church by Augustine. I have references for all of these statements and I am sure that Satan (who invented the idea of human immortality – telling Eve that they would not die)promotes the idea of hell to make God appear to be a “monster”.
Mike. I hope you will read Jon Zen’s book “Christ Minimized.” I think you will enjoy it and give you further food for thought.
Hi Frank,
Thanks. If Edward Fudge recommends it it is probably worth a read. I’ll see if I can source it here in South Africa.
I like what you say on here, that you know that Bible talks about hell and that it is not a good place. I do not think you arrived at that conclusion so easily? I see that many of your thoughts are neither left nor right which is awesome, but also books you recommend are from what some people would say are left and others right, that is not the point. What I want to ask, and am not sure if you would even answer this, but coming to some of these beliefs/conclusions, did you ever go through what some people would call the ‘dark night of the soul’ over the 25 years you have been following Christ? And if so, what brought you through? Sure I know the Spirit but just saying?
I give a full treatment to the question in “Revise Us Again.” What I say there is all I have to say about it publicly. http://www.ptmin.org/books
what chapter? do you know
The one about God’s presence.
k. Just ordered the book. Thanks
Thanks, I got the book. I wish I could go into further detail here but just like you said I do not find this to be the place. Their is not better description then what you gave “the dark night is when God tosses out the moral compass from a believers life.” This is the past nine to ten months. anyhow, not to go into it which i am sure you know way better then I, is their any books that you suggest, not the the book will get any person through but I find this to be a very interesting thing, and would love to look into the God given honor….if that is what you want to call it.
I now of nothing that sheds any new light beyond what’s stated in that chapter. Sorry.
Hi Michael,
I’d like to offer a few suggestions, that in addition to Frank’s wonderful chapter might be additionally helpful:
- Release of the Spirit by Watchman Nee
- Practicing His Presence by Brother Lawrence
- Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross
- Dying to Live with Christ by Rod and Staff publishers
- Victory in the Wilderness by John Bevere
- Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ by Jeanne Guyon
- The Spiritual Guide by Michael Molinos
Michael – Lamentations 3:1-33 is a great passage on the dark night of the soul.
Thanks for this post. I read Love Wins in a few hours and enjoyed the questions it raised. One of my favorite lines in it (and I’m paraphrasing) is that “the gospel (the evangelical community has presented) has been reduced to nothing more than trying to get past the bouncer at the club.” In other words, if the gospel has been presented as merely a “ticket to heaven, a way to keep out of hell” we aren’t doing a very good job of presenting the bigger picture, the beautiful Jesus and the wonderful life he offers, the hope, the grace, etc. that will draw people in. I agree with several of the above bloggers who state that believers, particularly of this generation, want a place where they can discuss, raise the questions no one has been willing to raise and open that “can”. I believe that was just what Bell aimed to do in his book, and I appreciated that. I think the fact that he is a well known pastor of a large church is perhaps what set his little book on fire….had it been written by a Christian author who was not a pastor, perhaps all the fuss wouldn’t have ensued. I look forward to checking out Christ Minimized, Frank. I always love a good discussion.
YEAH!!! They need to get off their lazy Duffs =-D