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Frank Viola | Beyond Evangelical
Official Blog of Author & Speaker Frank Viola. Digging below the surface and moving beyond the shallows in today's Christianity.
We Have Not So Learned Jesus Christ – A Few Thoughts About Internet Correspondence
The Problem With Mental Filters
Frank
Do I use the word(frog) here or at the end of this comment…now you know this is a first time thing for me. I just want to say thanks for setting, what should be for a believer, good guidlines for entering into convesations with you. Thanks for putting yourself out there and I hope to be more than a long distance viewer in the future
Well to answer question 1. Yes I have, but I would say that it happened because I myself did that to someone else. For me, as a Christian I misunderstood completely how love could actually solve a lot of my issues that I have had with people, especially with people that have in some way treated me wrongly. Right now I am in a state of repentance from some attitudes and actions that I have been harboring for a long time against people who have done me wrong. I am again, and with more understanding than the first time, starting to open myself up to understanding love again. This blog even though I have not read a lot of them has really helped me to grasp a CLEAR picture of what I have been doing wrong this whole time. I thank you for your transparency and willingness to share your thoughts with all of us. It has been a really great tool for me and I have only been reading your blogs for one day.
So glad I stumbled across this … wish this were required reading for all believers.
When you posted Matthew 7:1-4, you neglected verse 5. If we are quoting a passage, we should NEVER neglect the whole context of what is being said on the TOPIC… otherwise we do very serious injustice and distortion to the intent of the passage. If we get that BEAM out of our own eye, we will be able to get that speck out of our brother’s eye. 🙂 Reality check on this passage is to know that Jesus was speaking about CONDEMNATION, not wrongly assigning motives or assuming one knows another’s motives. I mention this in direct connection with all of what Paul has made amply clear within 1st Corinthians 5:1-13. We are to discern as the facts make clear.
Tim: Verse 5 takes nothing away from what Jesus said in verses 1-4. Rather, it has to do with aiding another with a humble attitude (as Paul describes in Galatians 6); it’s not a mandate to judge the intention of another human being as Jesus *just* condemned in verses 1-4 .
Any attempt to dilute Jesus’ words on that score is to come in conflict with His own words later in the text (“treat others THE SAME WAY you want them to treat you”) and Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 13 that “love thinks no evil” and His own words in verses 1-4.
To impute evil motives to the hearts of others is to do serious injustice and distortion to the intent of the Lord Jesus Christ and His nature, not to mention that it’s to play God–a *very* serious thing. We have not so learned Christ. Love “thinks no evil,” but thinks the best of others. Discerning the truth of a matter based on *facts* and imputing evil motives to someone’s heart are two very different things.
If someone is going to plead “context,” don’t stop at v. 5, but go on to verse 12. That sums it all up. No one desires for their motives to be misjudged and their heart imputed with evil intentions. “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets” (Matt. 7:12).
the golden rule has gotten rusty from lack of use.
hiding behind computer screens has revealed the hearts of many
it’s what comes out of a man’s heart that defiles him. think someone important said that.
Wonderful to discover this blog today. Frank, I have read your “Pagan Christianity” but was unaware of your blog. I have been on “Christian Forums” in which there have been a lot of personal attacks, especially with those who deviate from the norm which they have established. I have been kicked off one of them for being “divisive”. But since that time I have discovered two wonderful forums where there is mutual respect. It appears to me that this blog is a third. Great!
Thx. Timios. How did you find the blog? Be sure to check out the sequel to PC – http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org
I think I discovered the blog through your newsletter, if I remember correctly. I do have a copy of Reimagining the Church”. Thanks for everything.
Frog…
Wow! Thank you Frank, this message is right on time. I have had my comments and postings so misquoted and reconstructed to fit what they “thought” my intention were. Not once in any of those instances have I been asked for clarification on my motive for posting what I did, instead I have been slandered and attacked.
Is it ok if I quote some of this?
Glad you found it of help, Marcus. Sure, I just ask that you kindly put the link to the whole blog post so people can see the entire piece. Thx. again.
FROG here 😉 And my very FIRST time at blogging.
Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
I too have witnessed the abuses and indulgences in the context of church leadership and was myself accused of all sorts of evil motives and had to make decisions about what I felt I could or could not be a part of. I could no longer bring change to that local church and lost my will to pray or believe that things were ever going to change if I stayed.
I was so fortunate to find a place of renewed belief in leaders at a church in another state. I was restored and enjoyed a place to call my tribe. But unfortunately that was short lived as the leaders felt it best to merge that church with a larger local church. I’ve had a couple of years now to pray through and listen to what I feel God is calling me to and I’ve decided to move on from the “merged” church and look for a community of believers who are committed to building something COMPLETELY different than the last four church models I’ve been involved with. Kind of a scary and risky place to be but I have BIG faith that my God is going to bring together a Bride as His Word says, “without spot or wrinkle.” And I AM going to be a part of THAT!!!
I am again accused of all sorts of wrong motives and ideas yet I know what I am being called to build. And “before my own Master I stand or fall”…before the Lord I’m confident that I am doing exactly what He’s called me to do at this time and I will find a place where I can be used.
I despise division and beyond that I’ve come to totally despise hierarchy. Men who lord over others, groups who are exclusive and churches who neglect their communities make be want to throw up!!! I think that those of us who have come from those things need to unite, link arms and stay strong in believing that we can build something completely different. And with that, those previously mentioned ” Christian clubs” will fall like the top-heavy skyscrapers they have become!
I posted a comment shortly after Frank wrote this and then got mad at myself because I sounded like awhiney victim. I’m pretty sure everyone has been judged at one point or another and as long as we’re on this earth, the encounters will continue.
I remember several months ago I was having a little trouble with a co-worker. I’m in sales, and if that won’t bring it out in you, nothing will. Several times I went home quite perturbed if not downright angry at some of the things I DISCERNED in this person. Well, actually some things didn’t take much discernment at all, but we seem to get in trouble as Christians when we perceive something that’s “just not right,” assume the worse, and then spiritualize it by calling it discernment. When I began to “discern” my own ugly reactions, I began to deal with them and also talked to the Lord about my failure to love another. There was a word I came across while reading the Bible that grabbed my attention. The word “malice.” I thought I knew what the word meant,….I was familiar with “ill-will, evil, wickedness” etc., but one of the definitions I came across was ‘assigning evil to another’s motives.” Busted. So much for discernment. I wasted little time in going to my co-worker and asked forgiveness for my “unkindness.”
I have been greatly wounded by “Christians” in the past by unjust, unfair judgments. Some of it took years to truly heal. However, I’m not responsible for their attitudes and/or actions….I am responsible for my own. I have a Savior who was all too familiar with the erroneous judgments of man and when unjust judgment is leveled my way, I can rejoice that I may share in His sufferings. I just need HIM to be able to do so.
Frank, thank you for writing on this subject. It’s truly needed for all of us.
RIBB-IT! RIBBIT!
Great discussion all… as a first time “commenter” on Mr. Viola’s blog, I have to say… Great thoughts on an all too often “sore” subject due to some uncivil (at best), ungodly (at worst) behavior.
I learned long ago what a Christian @#!-hole acted and sounded like… and I almost vomited when I realized they were “deacons” whose public behavior in a nice restaurant made me want to crawl in the nearest crevice and pray no one saw my face (or my Christian conference name badge… aargh!).
The internet is the most powerful weapon on the planet right now and that weapon can either be the “Death Star” used to crucify those loving righteousness- or it can be the “unifier” of all who call on Christ’s name in pure-heartedness. It is true… it’s easier to throw darts from a hidden distance away, than to confront like Jesus did/does. (chickens clucking here… “bok, bok, baaawwk!”)
May God give us grace and WISDOM to “know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em, know when to walk away, and know when to run!” (Love ya man! Can’t wait for new book!)
Peace for now… your bro. in the faith
Frank, great post once again. I tend to think that people who judge intentions are proud people, so I don’t think they will change even after reading something as spot on as this. I have a friend who judged my wife’s intentions and I had them read this. They still did it. It’s a blindness. Someday maybe God will break through and they’ll see the sin and how awful it is. Thanks for the post man, it’s the best thing I’ve read on the subject.
Boy, my thought after posting my comments were, “No way Frank will post this.” Thanks for proving me wrong.
Listen, I know, I wear it on my sleeves at times.
No, didn’t know C.S. was an “anglican”. I de-cap the “A” purposely. I don’t think Jesus sees C.S., nor me, nor any of us, as an “Anglican”, or under any denominational tag, but His children as one family, no walls. (There I am — on that soap box, click here – “BORAX” for a turn back in time). I know, given our human frailties, and the reality of the world in which we live, that is ideological for the here and now. Yet, and I know you agree, Jesus holds to no denominational distinctiveness.
l have read some of C.S.Lewis’s books, and I guess my memory escapes me because I cannot remember in anything I read where he drew attention to the fact he was Anglican. Reading between the lines it seems he draws attention away from any wall of separation. Perhaps his biographers make note of it. (I never researched it.) And, based upon what I have read, I doubt even if he did, he would not have done so with the intent of elevating his affiliation above that of another, or even drawing a distinction. For that would be the ultimate “screwtape letter”. Unfortunately, as I know you are well aware, the denominational, (Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.), schisms are a direct result of the Constantinian intrusion into the Organic church.
Frank, you have lived, breathed, and experienced the organic church for twenty years. I haven’t — only longed to as I sought to break away from the pretentiousness of the IC. You have lived and penned what I have instinctively longed for — for over twenty seven years. There is no way you can begin to imagine the “envy” I carry in that regard.
And, yet, I know that in spite of all our longings, “envies”, frustrations, and the fleshing out of our worldly inhibitions and short sightedness, that God will in his glorious, eternal wisdom, omniscience, immutability, etc., reconciles all things unto Himself — even our petulant wanderings into the abyss of the IC and denominationalism.
Our eternity in Christ doesn’t begin at our earthly end — death’s door, but in the here and now. Perhaps you cover that is your soon to be released book. “From Eternity To Here”, which I cannot wait to get my hands on.
In any event, I was only musing under my wantings to express, as we do, in this new form of communication – the blog, brought to us by way of the world wide web.
Here’s a musing. John White draws attention to the Starfish at http://www.luke10.com. I’ve often wondered, with the Internet now being the Starfish it is, if the world will not be drawn to closer to its close as the world wide starfish we are becoming ever dependent and reliant upon is somehow decentralized into the hand of one.
Think of it. What would happen, even today, not to mention ten or twenty years from now, if it were centralized under the control and domination of one individual.
Hmm…just musing — reminds me of something from the past. Does the name Constantine and the term Institutionalization ring a bell – the centralization of the church?
Just musing. After all, even if so, God will reconcile all things to Himself, will He not?
Yes, He will do so in spite of all our human inhibitions, frailties, and inhibitions, walls, etc.
Just musing.
It’s what a “BLOG” is for, isn’t it?
Oh, yea, it’s PAL, not Paul. Taken from my middle name, Palmer.
Grace to you,
Pal
apologies for the name mistake. when I see “Pal” my brian reads it “Paul.” Guess I need to stop reading that thing called the New Testament 😉
Here’s my transparent offering of my own pilgrimage. I have come to learn this through experience and knowledge. That is, that the FOUNDATION upon which the Institutional church is built is a lie.
Now, I have learned not to judge the hearts of those leading the IC. However, I am not at all opposed to confronting them, and sometimes that means taking “unconventional” methods, i.e., like a Rush Limbaugh – Sean Hannity type radio program I host. As those two draw a distinction between conservatism and liberalism, I draw the distinction between Organic and Institutional Christianity, and I pull no punches. And, I use commercials and outakes from many in the body of Christ to drive home the point. Especially the pulpiteers who hawk money on many of the Christian TV programs. It makes me ill.
And, yes, Frank, there is something in the air. First, there is the economic crisis. Second, there is the growing awareness that the IC is a total failure. Didn’t say there wasn’t some good that flows from it, only that it is a failure.
How do I know this? Look at the culture. What impact has the IC had on the culture. There is an IC on every corner. What’s their problem?
Third, there is a moral crisis. Whose to blame – the politicians? Oh, pleeeaaassseeee! No, it’s us – YOU and ME – the CHURCH! WE DROPPED THE BALL!
Sorry, no, I am not sorry, it’s just the TRUTH! The IC has driven the church into a ditch.
Now, from what I have seen I like Myles Monroe. Seems like a very nice man. I’ve seen him on TV, agree with a lot of what he says. However, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t he head up an IC?
Folks, I’d tell it to his face if I ever saw him: “Miles, you’re in the wrong boat. And, if you’re message is about the KINGDOM – then let’s build it the way God intended. Not with titles and position, but with servitude and freedom, organically in the home and out of the home.”
Anyway, it is obvious where I draw the line here. I’m part of a REVOLUTION! A Revolution turns things the wrong side up the right side up. A Revolution is led by those willing to lay down their lives for the FREEDOM that is gained when truth wins out.
Right now, in the IC, the lie is winning out. I’m out to do all I can to change that. And, in the process in feathers get ruffled, if I am imprisoned, if my life is taken on that road to FREEDOM – then so be it!
My life is not about the here and now, and neither is yours. It’s about the everlasting which starts here and now – not when I die. And, if I might be so bold – so is yours if it’s about the Kingdom.
Finally, I offer this: “Those who do most for the present world are precisely those who think most of the next.” — C. S. Lewis
Grace to you all,
Pal Madden
http://www.ylifeonline.org
Paul. As I’ve said in my books, I believe God is using people in all different types of expressions of church, even those kinds of expressions that I may not agree with.
N.T. Wright, for instance, is a friend of mine and a man I greatly respect. He also happens to be an Anglican bishop.
I see you quoted C.S. Lewis. Are you aware that he too was an Anglican 🙂
Frank
I just learned that my compatriot Francis Chan doesn’t allow comments on his blog either. Chan and I have the same publisher, David C. Cook.
The blog manger tells me that she’s giving up moderating this blog for Lent. I told her she’s a day late and a dollar short 🙂
Frank,
thanks for putting in a blog what has been on my heart for a while. Both online and in real-life we saints should reflect the love, gentleness and welcoming spirit of God the Father.
Blessings,
Eric / the Netherlands
Dear Frank: keep on doing what the Lord called You to do! Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might!
Brethren: Let us continue Wycliffe’s Revolution of Restauration of the ekkesia!
From Southern Hemisfere
In the love of Jesus
Thanks, Javi. It’s so refreshing to receive encouragining emails like this. Thanks for making my day and showing me Christ 🙂
Man, this is great stuff. Thanks for posting this Frank. Very convicting, yet very encouraging.
I haven’t read through every response, so I don’t know if anyone has touched on this perspective regarding judging others but here is a wrong turn we made in our story:
My wife and I after years of me-Christianity, truly committed our hearts to Christ three years ago without knowing what we were about to endure. We were empty and life had no meaning. We knew that He needed to be our all. The ride since has been hard (death is difficult, isn’t it?), yet freeing and life-giving at the same time. We see ourselves in the wilderness as Frank describes in some of his writings/audio. Anyway, as the Spirit began working in us, we were becoming more and more aware of our sin; and lots of it!. As a result, he was opening our eyes to many things about ourselves and what is true about his Son, his church, his purpose. Unfortunately, in the beginning (and we are still tempted today) we then began judging others, expecting them to see the same things that God was revealing to us. We were becoming legalists. In fact, we even approached a sister in law and questioned her desires/motivations as a Christian and it was a disaster. We thought we were loving her, yet there was definately a spirit of self righteousness in motive. Fortunately, the Spirit revealed the sin in our hearts to us. We aren’t sure if we “picked up” this bondage or if it was always there and God simply showed it to us.
Judging truly is a idol worshipping act and we are praying that God, in Christ, would free us of it. It has no place in the life of a follower of Jesus.
Peace and love in Christ to you all
FROG: Great post!. Makes me wonder… the fact that this is Christianity 101 and there is so much people who calls themselves christians and not understand this basic relationship principle is a proof of how Institutional Church hinders spiritual maturity and development. But in the other hand, it shows how little work we do in terms of developing our relations based in christian principles. Sometimes we assume that love is something that will grow naturally or instinctively but we forget that love is not only fruit of the Spirit but also a command that has to be obeyed even in times we don’t feel to.
Frank, I stand with you in the subject of offering the other cheek when you’re the victim of an attack, and be ready to take the bullet for a friend/brother. I’ve learn the hard way that when you take your defense in your own hands the medicine lt is often worst then the problem; but letting the Lord (and sometimes others) be your defender always, and I repeat ALWAYS is the best way to go. This doesn’t mean that we cannot talk with the attacker and try to clarify and make things work out, but if we try to do it we have to be aware if the spirit of the encounter is of restoration of the relation or just an excuse to make the flames of fire worst.
Blessings, and see you at the Orlando event, can’t wait to meet you.
Charlie. I agree. When under attack, we shouldn’t defend ourselves. But if a friend is under attack, that’s a whole different story.
Again, what makes all things clear to such situatilons is the question: “how would I want to be treated if it were me in those shoes?”
That one statement by Jesus has a way of clearing away all the fog.
The minute I began to read this I didn’t like it. Thank God He’s taught me that I need to check my heart when that feeling arises because He normally wants to do some more digging out and cleaning out. Since I’ve given Him permission to go anywhere in me to transform me He’s done it, but oh so lovingly, and gently.
Thanks for being faithful to write truth, whether we want to hear it or not 🙂
Thank you for your humility, Peggy. It’s refreshing.
Thanks, Frank and everyone for this reminder.
You know that old saying “It takes one to know one” ? A long time ago I learned this lesson: I was very upset about a brother’s behavior. While I was praying (probably more complaining) The Holy Spirit started to show me how I behaved in the same way. I realize that the very things that irritate me most about someone else…I’m usually guilty of. It’s difficult to look first at our own heart when someone is ruffling our feathers. Isn’t it why Y’shua tells us to pray for our enemies…so then we are open to His correction.
Blessings to you all,
Lynne
Good insight, Lynne. I have a friend who once told me that she went to college with someone who was always paranoid that other people were talking about her behind her back. She was always paranoid and actually would judge her friends of back-stabbing.
The ironic thing is that my friend told me that this girl always talked behind people’s backs and back-stabbed all her friends on a regular basis. So she just read that into everyone else.
There really is something to projecting what’s in us onto others. And Jesus nailed it in Matthew 7.
Frank I have tried time and again to overlook points of disagreement with you, to not be offended over trivial stuff. But I can not overcome a recent ‘judgment’ that has stuck in my mind, the ‘straw that broke the camels back’ if you will. While perusing your site I spotted your facebook photo, we all have preconcieved ideas of what bloggers look like. Like great heroes of the faith [Zwingli weilding a sword] but I had one thought come to mind when seeing your photo A CHRISTIAN VERSION OF GLEN BECK! I am sure I will get over it in due time. God bless from Corpus Christi.
John, lol. Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who’s Glen Beck? 😉
Great post. This blog (and many others) are a huge blessing to me and a benefit to the Body of Christ. I have learned a lot from God’s people via the internet. However, there have been times when I’ve been reading blogs or forums that I’ve been so discouraged by attacks on people that I just had to stop going there. So thanks for these words, they are much needed for all of us.
Wow, thanks Frank, you,ve done it again, answer my deep questions. I hear you and I hear you loud and clear. Have been struggling for the last week with the feeling that I did not defend a friend who was being talked about in a negative way. I live in the zone of being misunderstood.Most people say it,s how I speak, that gives the wrong impression, so I have to work on my presentation. People seldom apologise for misunderstanding me, most would just say it,s my fault because of how I speak. Some times I feel like just saying quiet but I know that is a trick of the enemy. Like many other areas in my life,the way I speak has much room for improvement. I do not think it gives anyone the right to judge me wrongfully, then casually remark that it’s my fault. Thanks again Frank, I feel as though the healing has begun.
FROG Many years ago my husband and I were ostracized by a church we had been part of for 15 years. The people there were like family to us, but there was some “unknown judgment” made that, over a rather short period of time, resulted in people separating themselves from us. When we went to “leadership” and asked (practically begged) what the judgment was, we were told that to discuss the matter with us would just “open a can of worms” and left at that. We felt we had no alternative but to leave the body we had been a part of for so many years. The people to this day have no idea the pain and devastation we felt for so many, many years.
Whether judgment/misjudgment is communicated by internet or in any other manner, it is very damaging. We are called to restore one another in a spirit of gentleness if anyone is, indeed, in error. In the Spirit of Christ we can edify and build one another up bringing glory to our loving Father.
Excellent post. I haven’t experienced this in my blog, but it’s not a widely read blog, nor am I a well-known writer. I think people often assume that “public” people should expect and be able to take the abuse. That it’s part of the package. Maybe it is, but no one, no matter how well-known, likes to be judged and accused–falsely or otherwise. And no one enjoys seeing his/her friends accused.
Things like this destroy friendships. It’s necessary to forgive, but not necessarily wise to restore trust, and that, of course, precludes continuing the friendship–at least on the same level.
I do think that the younger generation, having often been “raised” by television shows, may have missed out on some of the niceties that have helped to oil the engines of social interaction. They have seen rude comedians without the moderation of a parent to say, “but that’s not the way we behave here.” I’ve observed this sort of behavior in unquestionably well-intentioned young people (when the older ones do it, the intentions are often more on the negative side) and can only conclude that they don’t mean anything by it. They just truly don’t know any better.
This is maybe where it’s important to have a mix of generations in our fellowships. We all have differing things to offer to one another and we need the teaching that others, young and old, can offer us.
Cindy, I believe those who are called to serve the Lord will suffer abuse of all types. Especially those who speak prophetically. It should be expected as Jesus told His disciples: “beware when all men speak well of you.” And it should be embraced as part of the sufferings that come from God’s hand. (That’s another topic altogether that’s too large for this blog post.)
At the same time, God has called some to teach the body of Christ that such things are not according to Christ, with the only motive being God’s glory and peace and harmony in his Body as well as a testimony to the world that we really can love one another.
I just wish there were more people teaching these things, as it seems to be not terribly well known in our time.
Correct me if I’m wrong (in love).
In Matt. 5-7, Jesus exposes the danger of man’s motive towards men and towards God. Then He says in 7:23, after the long resume of declared works on His behalf, “I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness (or wayward motives).”
Mark 9:38 picks up the aftermath of this revelation through John forbiding and rebuking someone that was doing the work of Christ, but yet was not a follower of Christ (as John was).
After hearing a penetrating word on motive from Jesus, John moves into action on the Lord’s behalf, but with partial understanding.
Jesus completes the revelation of motive by instructing John to be mindful of the Body.
Meaning, John, I am “the” cause, but not “a” cause.
John received a healthy revelation, but He moved in partial understanding.
Jesus says, “Don’t tear him down, John, because he doesn’t know Me as you know Me. The Lord’s point was that we need more salt (wisdom, love and grace) in order to properly deliver true correction (more of the Cross).
Building up in love is the aim of God, not tearing down in elitism.
I needed to hear this, brother, because a soft pliable meek mind and lowly heart is needed due to the growth of offenses.
Thank you, sir, and thank you all for your words.
FROG just a quick comment about accusing someone of “pride” — i have learned through the years that there is a fine line between pride and just plain boldness and knowing who you are in Christ Jesus. – our Lord is the discerner
Boy Laurie. that is so very true! One thing I’ve noticed is that if someone were to go through Paul’s letters carefully, they would have to conclude that the man was full of pride … either that, or he was incredibly confident in the Lord and in his calling.
Those who are quick to judge others of pride should consider that. And use the same meaure on Paul of Tarsus.
I’ve observed that a person who is comfortable in their own skin and who is confident *in the Lord* looks very much like a self-confident, proud person on the outside. But underneath, they are in fear and trembling of themselves, completely and utterly dependent on Christ. Yet you wouldn’t know that from watching or hearing them.
Confidence in Jesus Christ makes one bolder than lions.
FROG We learned the hard way not to send emails judging motives. One sister in our church said that she could only think clearly about what she wanted to say to someone by writing it. She has been working on it though and we agreed in our little Home Assembly here not to send crtical emails to others. If it is important, it should be talked about face to face. The printed word leaves so much room for wrong interpretation based on what the reader understands the word to mean. One thing though- it is very hard for me to personally catch someone mid-sentence and tell them that what they are doing is a) judging & b) gossip. When I hear the attacks begin, I sometimes get confused on just what I should say….any suggestions?
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Elaina
Here’s a good ‘rule of thumb” I learned the hard way in the business world: ‘Don’t ever send an e-mail correspondence (or in this instance, send a blog comment) when you’re angry”. So often it comes out much more harsh than you ever intended. 🙂
Frank,
Wonderful posting. I’ve had this exact discussion with at least two different believers, just this week. One thing we discussed was the affect of corporate culture on electronic communications (specifically email). Many corporate environments are driven to “produce” which is a scenario ripe for creating abuse of this very issue. I was in corporate America for 16 years and was blessed to be trained by a very wise individual. He insisted we ALWAYS read, re-read, and re-read again ALL emails. Simply put, he held us to the guidelines of using electronic communications to encourage and build but NEVER to address problems. I realize face-to-face communication is not practical for blogging and forums but we should all learn how not to be offensive in our writing (especially when we imply the intentions of another person’s heart — very dangerous ground).
Let’s use this as an opportunity to do a “heart check” . . .
Pursuing my King,
-Benny-
FROG
This is not just the first time that I have written on your blog but the first time I have written on any blog. I am a homeschool mom of 9 children. I guess this keeps me from doing a lot of things.
My husband and I have had the most incredible year. We moved near some families to be apart of a homechurch in our area after searching for many years for the fellowship the Lord had for us. We were homechurching for 5 years prior to this with one family here and another there. One family hung in there for three years and we did not agree on everything but we respected and loved each other and knew that this was temporary. When we moved by the families that we were starting to homechurch with, on the first Sunday we did not attend. Things were assumed, talk had taken place behind closed doors. The enemy had made his first attempt to stop the church from comming together and being unified. A lot of judging and assuming was happening. Our entire family was cut off from them. One man imparticular that was new to the area, convinced the other families we had known for 8 years of some fears that he had about us, very exageraged. Action was taken against my husband, something like the inquisition. These exact words were used by the men who did this later on. We also fell prey to judgeing them and defended ourselves. We were apart from them for nine months and the Lord began showing us how to rejoice, how to pray for our so called enemies, and how to love and have compassion on them. The man who had these fears to begin with was being exposed for the very things he accused us of. We became burdoned for he and his family. We could see that he had one foot out the door because God had allowed what he did to us to happen to him. Only now the Lord put compassion and understanding in our hearts. We tried to share our love and forgivness with him and hoped that he would stay. We went to God and said your will be done. If you want him to stay then so be it and if you want him to leave then so be it. He ended up leaving all of the sudden. And that was it.
Our family suffered a lot during this but we also learned a lot. All of the families appologized and restored us back into the fellowship.
My husband and I are first generation Christians and have had quick a few struggles in our marriage in the last few years. Just recently we both agreed no matter what the missunderstanding was, or the offense, we were going to think the best of each other. This gave us such power over judging and assuming the worsed. The enemy always tells us the worsed and puts fear in our hearts. We are learning to bring those thoughts under the scrutany of Gods word, his truth, and cast the lies out. Thinking the best of the other at ALL times really helps us to be set free from Satan’s attacks. This has also been very powerful with our children, especially our older ones.
I do not know if this was worth writting and I am sorry if it was long.
I believe what your are saying brother, is very true, and more common than we think.
Continue in His wonderful goodness and mercy.
Sister Katrina
Thank you for the words, Frank, and being willing and open to call it to the carpet. I also admit that I need to search my own heart (and comments) and see if there be any wicked way in me.
I can say that I have had people judge my motives wrongly, but sadly I can’t recall any repentance/forgiveness in it.
This post also made me remember a discussion of ‘gossip’ going on in another blog. I think it can be related to this ‘judging’, as well as to ‘slander’.
Good words, please keep them comming, IN SPITE OF the judgements.
Love ya bro!
Brian, wow. what’s scary is that this same thing happened to us not long ago. the person was asking my opinion on something, and I reluctantly gave it to him . then he went on the attack and read into things I wrote that weren’t at all what I intended. I really fear for those who play God and pretned to know what another person is thinking. The Lord Jesus said, “I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”
Only He is the one who can see into the heart. We tread on dangerous ground when we pretend we can.
Frank you hit it on the head here. I’ve noticed this same thing in the air. I agree that many christians don’t seem to understand that judging motives is a sin.
It’s interesting that few people gave testimony of someone judging motives and apologizing. I think this is because it’s rare. Usually when people do this they are so full of pride that they don’t see it, even if they read a blog post like this which lays it out clearly.
I was recently emailing someone regarding something I wrote. Instead of asking for clarification he jumped to a conclusion about what I was trying to say.
It looked like this.
The other person: “You are trying to say blah blah blah. I don’t respect you for this. ” he was attempting to get into my head. and his conclusion was wrong.
Me: “you misunderstand, that’s not what I was thinking or trying to say. this is what I meant ”
The other person: “Yea, right. no it’s not. you meant what I said you meant.”
The guy was calling me dishonest. what pride to think he could read my mind.
He’s a christian or claims to be.
I hope everyone here can see how wrong this is and what damage it does.
thanks for posting this Frank. we need more people to talk about it. it’s a real problem in the church today.
Frankly great blog. Just because its Christianity 101 doesn’t absolve us from practicing it. All the pros, in any profession always practice the rudiments, the fundamentals. Something I’ve learned and has been a great benefit in dealing with the pole in my own eye is observing that when one points the finger in judgment it is actually impossible to describe anybody but yourself. Witnessing this phenomena curiously for over a decade now it seems to be an immutable law of projection. The problem then is what you do with this testimony now you know it is your own. I myself really learned quite actively about this other often disregarded rudiment of love: repentance. In short notice you are in fact voicing your own shortcomings, turn and go to God with it so as the Spirit can direct you to those brethren who can help you in the Lord with what took me falling into a level of delusional responsibility called blame to face in myself.
This works in others and I’ve learned since I’m certainly with the same sin that when a fellow human being points his finger at me and describes himself I must also turn give it up to the Lord in prayer and ask for help in discerning if something said troubling the angry young born again which needs to be rebuked.
Often the case was I or a sister or brother was venting at an undefensible target, in order to circumvent the board in their own eye. Once the chatter ran out of steam suddenly the problem lay open where two are gathered in His name. One must have patience and hold ones tongue, through such frustrations finding again ground to repent and seek forgiveness. thanks for reminding me once again about this great tool of abiding in witness, for the Lord.
Frog: Thanks Frank, It occurs to me that if Christ’s love in me was the interpreter of all that I hear,think or speak the spirit of offense that flows from the flesh would never ever never ever rear it’s ugly head. Of course I have experienced both sides of the fence you skillfully bring forth in this blog and it causes me to search my own heart to seek to make amends and repent for for my lack of discernment both inward and outward. So many times I have been confused by the words and actions of fellow believers when LOVE did not seam to be the motivating factor for their “message” . I must confess that many times I also did not respond with the vary LOVE I sought from them. As you started this blog I to believe that there is something in the air and has been for a long while,but hallelujah this, there is something in the Heavenlies much bigger about to break forth of which you and others are forerunners.
Looking to His Kingdim ,
Peace,
Barry
ok, that wasn’t supposed to be a link. it was supposed to be the “internet” as in World Wide Web.
Again, a great post with great impact for me. Being one who is living in community with several others and, at the same time, in the process of stepping out of the institutional church, the issues you have talked about here have been most helpful.
Being a blogger as well, I have recently removed one of my blog posts because it was brought to my attention that I didn’t handle certain issues as well as I could have. The thing that bothers me about it is that it was brought to my attention, not by the ones who first read it and took offense with what I had written, but by someone else who doesn’t read my blog and whom it was passed on to, at least 3 parties down the line. How I wish the ones who first took offense would have come to me, as you suggest, with questions or thoughts about it. I believe it would have helped to resolve their issues with what I had written, as well as prompted me to reconsider what I had written and re-word in it a way that would have better communicated what was on my heart.
Regardless of the manner in which it was brought to my attention, I am still responsible, as a blogger (and more importantly as a follower of Jesus), for the way I communicate my thoughts, as well as the manner in which I respond to what I read or hear.
Thank you, Frank, for being willing to bring issues to the table that are often left out of the conversations I have found on the www.
Frank,
I do not intend to teach you anything, but since you have opened this topic to public discussion, let me say this: Love also endures all things, including rude, offensive or defamatory messages (emails, blog comments, etc.). That includes messages/words of those reading in or judging the motives of other people.
Love,
Abel
Of course it does Abel, but that’s a different topic altogether.
I can not think of any blogs I read that shut off comments. Alot are moderated. I would be disappointed to see you shut off comments. Sort of like when all the kids have to stay in from recess because 1 or two don’t know how to behave.
Anyway, I follow http://www.dawneden.blogspot.com alot. She blogs about chastity, abortion, Catholic Church, etc. and used to write for a seclar rock magazine, so she has a broad range of readers.
Apparently she used to ask people to conform to the Harris Protocol, which I guess must be like a Roberts rules of order for blogs.
Anyway she gave up and went with a one sentence rule which you can read below.
Hope this helps.
By Dawn Eden
So, in the Harris Protocol’s place, I am hereby instituting a single, overriding rule for all commenters to observe:
“”When you comment on my blog, be nice to other commenters and to me.”
Nice doesn’t mean syrupy, and it doesn’t at all have to be complimentary. It can be witty and it can be edgy. But it is always courteous, respectful, and sincere. When being nice, one may use sarcasm to make a point, but one can never use it as a cover for condescension or personal disgust.
The vast majority of commenters here understand this, and I’m grateful. It’s only for the sake of the few who don’t that I say this, so that they may take this as their cue to flee to the corners of the blogosphere where not-niceness is tolerated.
I used to think that as long as commenters who displayed personal anger or condescension towards their fellow commenters followed the Harris Protocol, it was worth it for me to tolerate the pall of resentment that darkened their scribblings. Dialoguing with people of alternate views, I thought, might not change their minds on issues, but it could at least change the part of them that wanted to demonize their opponents.
But I started noticing on other blogs that these same commenters whose open resentment I tolerated were bragging about how they took on the [expletives deleted] commenters on the Dawn Patrol.
Well, they can keep bragging now if they want — but they’ll no longer be able to express their disrespect for others in this forum.
If your comments are deleted or banned as a result of this policy, and you wish to explain yourself or apologize, drop me a line at the address at left. Thank you for your cooperation.
Frank ‘I discerned a spirit of pride in your statement’. Actually I am kidding! But your words are soul searching. I see at times 2 dynamics at work; one- we often avoid all correction and discernment out of a fear to confront error or speak truth. Two- or we go to extremes and use hatred and wrath to try and accomplish righteous goals. Both of these are wrong. thanks for the insight, John.
Here is a relevant quote I wrote down a while ago. Not sure where I got it from but something I like to keep in mind.
“When you hear your brother say something that is strange to you do not immediately argue with him, but listen to see whether he may be right and then perhaps you can also accept it. If you cannot understand him you must not judge him and if you think that he may be in error consider that you may be in greater error. Think about that for a while”.
I believe there are times when we go through tests of being judged by our brethren and the Lord wants to see how we respond in love. I have been judged and treated poorly by a brother in Christ for my past before I came to Christ. That particular instance hurt to the point of tears. I by God’s love chose to forgive him and still I choose not to be offended when it ever comes back to my mind even though it was painful. Bitterness and unforgiveness will ruin you. Our enemy tries to use misunderstandings between us to inflict pain and seperation, love is the perfect bond of unity.
The Internet creates an entire new vessel of communication. While the advance in technology brings with it the opportunity for communication to happen in forums never thought possible (i.e., blogs such as this, instant communication with friends from all over the world, the ability to instantly communicate on various topics with people you may or may not ever come in direct, physical contact with, even gain an education by never stepping foot in a traditional classroom!), it also brings a level of responsibility that is too often taken for granted. Because we have become so accustomed to this facade of communication – staring at a computer screen instead of the eyes and faces of the person we are communicating with – we have lost the realization of the impact of our words. And, as Mr. Viola has so astutely surmised, we “say” things we would never daresay to someone’s face. Written communication has several downsides: 1) we fail to see the personal reaction of our words on the other person; and 2) we fail to see if our words are interpreted appropriately. Because the written word is literally in black and white, it is, by nature, neutral and cannot convey emotion in a physical sense. However, word choices and phrases can be heavily emotionally-laden and culturally discriminatory, even if the writer did not intend for such malicious intent. The written word is almost worse in that it can be read over and over and over again, reprinted and forwarded. The possibilities for its audiences are mind boggling.
Therefore, it is crucial that we do not become lackadaisical with our writing and our word choices and even, perhaps, our assertiveness and our aggressiveness. Let us, as Mr. Viola reminds us, to check our hearts and our motivations to ensure that we have no malicious intent. And, let’s make sure we’ve removed our own mega-logs. We’ve all got them. I’m no exception.
Wonderful blog. Thank you for weighing in on this important subject. Oh for common decency to characterize all Christian correspondence on the web.
There is another option besides defending a friend or remaining silent, Frank. I also have the right to say, essentially, “Well, I don’t agree with you about so-and-so but I don’t want to argue about it right now.” In fact, this can be especially prudent if the person making accusations is very upset at the time. Timing can be very important.
Please clarify for me. It sounds like you’re saying that you want us to always defend our friends, but never attack on the internet. Is that right? Sincerely, don’t you see how that could sometimes be a pickle?
Bill, taking up for a friend when they are being personally attacked or lied about does not mean “attacking” the person who is committing the transgression. Correcting a person when they are hurting another Christian is the not the same as attacking them. Far from it. I think the guide to follow in all things is what the Lord Himself gave us as a measure of His own life: “if it was me standing in those shoes, how would I want to be treated?” That works for all the players involved.
Thanks for this post, Frank. Good stuff. I needed this.
Thanks for the reminder Frank. We probably need it alot more than we get it.
This issue is far more weighty than the stuff we go on the attack over.
Thanks Frank. This what you wrote is the most important issue that makes and destroys the body of Christ.
Yes. Excellent points. Points well taken. I know that I have judged and have been judged. I have been in the place of needing to apologize and needing to forgive. Neither place is a fun place to be. I recall a few years ago I was going through a deep valley and an professing Christian came up to me and completely judged me for decisions I had made. What bothered me most about that conversation was that she made those attacks knowing one side of the “story” and on slanted information at that.
Unfortunately, my tongue (or my fingers on a keyboard) can be my enemy. While my intent is usually not malicious, I regret things that have come across wrongly. When I have attempted to assert my position on a debatable topic, I often come across as arrogant when, in reality, I am quite open-minded.
Thank you very much for the reminder. While it may be Basic Christianity 101, even veteran Christians need refresher courses.
Frank,
Thanks for the great post. I’ve had problems judging folks as I’ve been frustrated and alienated from institutional trappings (I’m a former church secretary). I would see ridiculous things happening, and went from a very unassuming think-the-best attitude to speculating on folks’ hearts. I felt dirty, and thanks to God I’m healing and learning from the experience.
So thank you for laying it all out so clearly. It helps this adopted brother see the Way more easily.
This post caught our attention, because it seems like the attacks you are referring to are different than the typical ones coming from those within the Institutional church, who are so often completely offended by some of the content of your writing…
It’s hard to know exactly what the nature of these attacks are (you weren’t very specific), but it seems like they’re more coming from people who don’t simply disagree on the usual things like professional pastors, or church buildings or whatever (take your pick of any chapter in PC…) but maybe more from those who see themselves as being within the “organic church movement”… Is that right? Maybe not, maybe it’s just more people who are angry that anyone would question the traditions of so many people, and their attacks are just getting more malicious and personal…
I don’t know, but if they are coming from people who don’t completely disagree with your stance, then the next question seems to be, how do we, as people who are serious about seeing the Body of Christ live free, hold each other’s actions accountable?
You know better than most, that one of the most common reactions from pastors, or anyone who is clinging to any part of the I.C. to what you write about is, “you can’t judge my motives, how dare you!” or ” That’s not Christ-like!” or of course “Worry about the log in your own eye!” etc… They react in the same, wounded way, even though you are NOT attacking their motives, but only their actions…
We must remember this when it comes to our OWN actions, that everything must be continually held against the standard of scripture, no matter well it seems to be “working”, or how much God even seems to be doing through it…
I know we all need to learn to edify one another, as iron sharpens iron, not to tear down, but to build up, and help each other be purified from everything that stands between us and Christ. I know I still have a lot to learn in this regard….
Hopefully you’ll at least stop getting the kind of emails you want to take into the smallest room of your house….
I can’t recall if I’ve been judged.
I just want to say, yeah, it’s in the air, water, what have you. I’m a mod on another forum and it’s gotten way out of control. People who are normally the balance are in attack mode. It’s almost enough to stay off teh interwebs.
So, thank you. I needed this.
Great blog, will read more when I have time! xx
On two separate occasions in a leadership meeting I was wrongly criticized for not taking on certain responsibilites that this leader thought I should have done. I felt like my head was put on the chopping block and the axe did drop. No one at that meeting came to my defense nor was there an apology. I walked out and my “friends” acted as if nothing happened. Amazing to me what a position of authority can do to someone.
I would be sad if you disallowed comments. I think moderating is the better part of wisdom. This is a good word and a good reminder, Frank. I have a story of being judged and the person later apologized but only after the pain of their judging led me to counseling and my counselor advised I ask for clarification from the person regarding the situation. I lived in pain for years. It was not fun. Especially since the person judging me ascribed her opinion to others. I remember asking one of the people whom I thought had judged me what she thought about the situation and she declared that she had never joined the leader in that thinking but had rather voiced her dissent. I had avoided that gracious and loving person because of what I had been told she thought of me. God brought me to a place of healing and restoration, but the years in between were difficult and devastating at times. While these experiences have helped me to mature emotionally and spiritually, being wrongly judged and falsely accused still hurts.