Hi Fun Seekers,
Not too long ago, I announced that we would be doing something on this blog even more amazing than the “one word monologue.”
Well, today is the day.
For the very first time on the blogosphere, we are going to do . . . (hold on to your chair) . . . the TWO WORD Monologue! (applause). That’s right, the two word monologue.
Here’s how it works. I’m going to give you two words, and then you will post anything you wish about those two words (providing they conform to the blog manager’s rules, of course).
The blog manager says that she will read all the comments on Wednesday and give away one copy of The Untold Story of the New Testament Church to the person who provides the best answer.
Okay, are you ready? Here are the two words.
Frank Viola
Just kidding, [cough] . . . that’s not it. So you can put away those flames and BBQ sticks. 🙂
Ok. For real. Here is the two word monologue for the day.
Moral Absolute.
That’s right, “moral absolute”.
Oh, remember. If this is your first time commenting on this blog, begin your comment with the word FROG.
“Christianity Today” Interview: God’s Grand Mission
The Law.
1. God definitely has moral absolutes.
2. Our list of them must of necessity be very short by comparison but I shudder to think of a person or society having NONE. There are many things we cannot judge because we only know in part,and we should certainly not judge the morivations or intentions of another’s heart; but there are certainly actions and behaviors that are without defense. Like the story of the Nazi soldiers who plucked out the eyes of a 5 year-old girl because they were pretty or someone raping a 6 month-old baby. There some things which we should agree that there can be absolutely no moral justification for.
No moral absolutes would mean complete anarchy and chaos, and evil would reign unrestrained.
I am living in a culture which does not judge lying to be wrong in any sense or for any reason and lying is more common than truth here.
Let me tell you, it is a taste of hell.
God is a God of perfect balance. Don’t think you have to try to throw out moral absolutes in order for Grace to reign.
Justice and mercy are not opposing forces. They are both attributes of God.
frog-
there’s only one thing that can be moral absolute. The Holy Spirit!! after all he is the one that convicts us in our life struggles. God’s Spirit is the only absolute. simple enough!
How about the big 10 and Matthew chapters 5-7? Don’t move the ancient landmarks! I am always amazed at the human conscience and the power of conviction in our lives. It seems to me that we either allow God to set the standard or we will play God and set our own. There has to be absolutes for even setting our own moral standards. You can’t vary from the path if there is no path.
Moral absolute
How significantly each of our life in the body of Christ Jesus’ is seen to fulfill how fearfully & wonderfully we’ are made by G_d’! Late entry – not after a book: Noted from these words given – found them yesterday Jun 16am & contemplated; my absolute answer is supply undeniably this, that ability is a granted sight to fulfil present & on ‘going existence. Hence, moral absolute distinctive are righteousness’ & holiness that are sightedness inherently unqualified in apprehending! Yet our G_d’ tells us to take up a cross daily. The transformation intrinsically is that all we’ are & will ever be is eternally inheritable to Him – Jesus Christ the Son of G_D’ & our husband—All came from him & unto him’, all is given to Him. Even ‘so the twenty four elders seen in Revelation gave up their given crowns unto the crown giver. What homage does this utter taste in inclination, ‘suggesting utter annihilation of one’s self need to know then by knowing keep one from losing hope in this decaying & self centered – world I ask? Create in me a clean heart & renew a right spirit w/in (inn) me. I am unable to fulfill, though told that what sufferings are to be taken-up in the cross, ‘having as it were patent excursion of & at that daily cross—For some insanity is necessary; yet necessity too have you change in me’ were I’ am unworthy of such a gift moral absolute… ‘Have mercy – undo what I am – please change what I am unable to perform then ETERNAL justice can have reward by erasing covetously any lingering note a secret sin – raze me from the dead to see you’ because then I would know you as my G_d & husband! – Then you said to Peter? “Feed my sheep”
Frog
Glad I waited to post…to follow up with David’s comments which I completely agree with.
Wow! With such diversity of thought and opinion, it shouldn’t be much of a mystery why we have such moral relativism and progressive tolerance of there being no absolutes today in our culture and within the Church. If we can reduce it to a personal feeling, judge motives and intents, redefine or dismiss moral absoluteness as being the antithesis of grace, mercy and love… then let’s just all sing “Kumbaya” and do our own thing. The false assumption that there can be no moral absolute other than a vague wind (the Holy Spirit) blowing wherever or an ethereal God as He chooses to be revealed on any given day; only shows how we attempt to define Him without having to KNOW Him. The reason we (human nature) struggle with the reality of there being anything morally absolute can be seen in our tendency throughout history to misinterpret Him or His Scriptures. The example that was used previously about the woman caught in adultery – We want to view “moral absolute” as she should have been judged, condemned and stoned; as the consequences for her actions because our interpretation of the Law says… Or else we determine that we aren’t to discern (“judge”) actions by an absolute standard because we are supposed to “love” the person.
The moral absolute clearly shown in that example was and is that adultery is a sin (whether in thought or deed). The moral absolute is revealed by Jesus telling her to go and sin no more because regardless of the outcome, what she did was morally wrong, and not God’s will 100% of the time… and apparently others were convicted of the same. Maybe we miss the point that moral absolutes were never intended to condemn and control others or justify ourselves. They are meant to instruct us and lead us to God.
Frog
Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”
Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
Revelation 22:14, 15 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
There are definitely “moral absolutes” and they are found in the Word of the Living God. Since the Bible is the Word of the Living God, the Holy Spirit instructs us through His word what “right” and “wrong” is. We simply don’t dismiss all of that instruction as “done away with” because Jesus died on the cross or because “God is love and so the only thing we’ve got to do now is love.” How do we know what “love” is without God instructing us on what it looks like and how to carry it out? God’s Word clearly tells us that we can’t trust our own heart. Does anyone know how to love the Lord with all of their heart, mind, soul, and strength and what that actually looks like without the Word of God protecting us from error?
1 Timothy 8-11 “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.”
God’s Word applies to all of humanity in every culture. Morality is not defined by culture, it is defined by God. Regardless of cultural acceptance, sex outside of the covenant of marriage is still sin. Regardless of cultural acceptance, bowing down before a statue is still sin. Regardless of cultural acceptance, forcibly taking money from one and giving it to another is still sin.
Colossians 3:1-17 “If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.”
Why did Paul write these words? Are they unnecessary? If we are to just “love,” then why are so many words written to instruct us “how” to love? Do these instructions apply only to some or do they apply to all of humanity?Do you really want to live in a culture where everyone does what is right in his own eyes?
Praise God that He has taught us “how” to love Him and not just left us to figure it out for ourselves. Thank God that He has given us His Word to keep us from error and the deceitfulness of Satan and false teachers. Thank God He has taught us “how” to love our neighbor. Thank God that He has told us in His Word what is right, and His Word is absolute truth.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 “Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.”
Much of evangelicalism is not really the Gospel but rather Moralist reformation. I think we forget sometimes that what caused Adam to die spiritually was that he ate a piece of fruit God told him not to (an act of independence) it was not that he was looking at porn or murdered etc…
My brain hurts for trying. So here’s not trying:
1 Corinth 10:23 – Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible, but not everything builds up.
I think I’m liberal and then I think I’m (oh help me) conservative and then I find relief in the spirit of God which rises above the line in the sand and is found deep within us.
Natural moral law is written on the human heart.
“Moral absolute” sounds too rigid, but then someone stated that “human rights theory” is a form of moral absolutism and then the rabbit trail of words, definitions, theories, names, scenarios for and against make me tired and I leave it for another day.
🙂
I think they do exist. God did make reaping and sowing an integral part of the human experience. If I plant carrots, I won’t get grapes. God is merciful and has intervened, letting His own Son experience the consequences of our actions, but the New Testament talks about us being rewarded according to our deeds. There are behaviors that I would say are never a good idea. Perpetrators of abuse are great at rationalizing their behavior and creating context for why they did whatever, but that doesn’t make it it right. However, there are various instances in Scripture where context and motive do matter. The trick is not to make absolutes where God does not.
FROG
Sadly, the first thing that came to mind was the fundamentalist – religious – version of Christianity in which personal (and not social) morality is the defining thing and judgement reigns supreme.
Happily, I then realised that there is a moral absolute – God, who is love – and that Jesus showed us in a mighty way how it looks to live that out.
Morally necessary but absolutely debate
God’s love, among other things, is certainly absolute. As for ‘moral’, the term is man’s way of defining right and wrong. God has that covered too; he set his laws on our hearts with love as the dominate theme.
frog; Sounds like another good name for God!
Frog…z
A moral absolute is whatever God thinks. Everything else is skubala.
Frog – transcendent reality
transcendent – comes from other than us to us
reality – experientially and empirically veritable
Sorry, I forgot to say FROG!!! That was my first ever comment, so FROG!!!
I hear sometimes, “Don’t be such a goody two shoes. If you’re too good, then you can’t relate to people in the world.” To that I say, “What?” There is no such thing as being too good. As humans, we can’t possibly be too good. I believe that if we walk in the reality of Christ in us; allowing ourselves to be led by Christ, we can come close, but as long as we are on this earth, we will always have to contend with our flesh.
I also know people who thank God for grace while happily running around doing what ever they please. I think they might be missing the point of grace.
People who think that they have attained this state of moral absoluteness, are probably the furthest from it, because usually if you think you’ve arrived you have an absolute pride problem.
Bottom line: Let Christ live in you and you in Christ. Realize that you are dead in your flesh. And remain humble. This is a hard one, because being humble means thinking of God and others more than yourself, and not ever thinking that you are better than other people in your humility (that turns your humility to pride).
FROG- first time responder
moral absolute- well first off anything dealing with morals is a personal set of standards in which YOU live your life. For me, or anyone else for that matter, to comment on is being judgemental. For what has gone on in my life surely is not what went on in yours. Also, to set up a standard as MORAL, well it sounds good. However, all you are doing is building up walls. Walls between you and GOD, and between you and other people. Because your MORALS builds your “law” if you will. And if we are to be a people that lives by the Spirit, then we don’t live by law.
And as far as absolute goes, well, the only absolute is God.s Word. nothing more nothing less.
So in conclusion, Moral Absolute- why discuss such topics other than to bring alittle clarity to life. You see all we are doing is building a theology for our lives. And I did say build, wich means walls are going up. I am in belief that theology is against God’s plan for things. It hinders our walk with him, well because it’s not in our “moral” mind of our theology to allow God to do a thing. The only Moral Absolute is that the Holy Spirit flows like the wind, to and fro, with no sense of “your ” direction. That’s our God. How amazing!!!! So in light of things “Catch The Wave.”
Martini, dirty, two olives. Ahhh… 🙂 Though, I’d prefer Greygoose…
FROG!
Moral Absolute? Micah 6:8, in particular the second section.
‘He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?’ (NASB)
FROG
God, by His own confession and by definition is the absolute of right, of good and of morality; all of this was expressed in human form in Jesus Christ.
at first glance, moral abolute seems like a righteous thing. . i think that morality is not, for men, true righteousness. morality is a man made concept that is fluid and changeable, depending on the whims of the powerful in society. god is a “righteous” absolute. a moral absolute is man-based perfection without mercy and without grace or forgiveness. it is harsh and, well, absolute. in men it becomes hypocracy and legalism, facism in ti’s extreme. while jesus was perfect, there was no moral absolute in him. remember the woman who was being stoned for adultry. the moral absolute would have been for her to be put to death. but jesus in his wisdom and mercy released her from the morality that was her “right” and showed her another way.
i would rather my tombstone read “she was merciful and righteous” than “she was moral and right”
peace.
FROG
Love the comments so far.
I suppose it would depend on whether you prefer tossing stones or drawing in the sand; whether you believe in redemption and reconciliation enough to live it out. I’ve found it true that mercy trumps judgment… And that you can’t go wrong with love.
FROG
Moral absolutes separate us from the animals. Atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, etc…, in general do not like the idea of moral absolutes. If there are universal laws that apply to all of us, then there must be a law giver…someone we are accountable to if we break these laws. Ironically, those who claim that there are no absolutes don’t usually live their lives consistently with that belief. Try cutting in line in front of them at the post office and see what their reaction is…or steal something from them. If there are no absolutes, why do so many people complain about being wronged. If everything is relative, what’s the basis for applying one person’s or group’s set of rules on everyone else? Only sheer force. Might makes right. or as the evolutionists like to say…survival of the fittest. As Christians, we should live our lives consistently with what Jesus taught…specifically what we find under the New Covenant. Love one another. Friends and enemies. Sacrificially…as Christ did. Sadly, you don’t see this type of love from much of the “leadership” of the church in the US. They teach as much hate as they do love.
FROG:
Moral Absolute: God, and we know God is love, and no greater love than this; that a man would give up his life for his friends. Thus Christ is the example and we are full circle back to GOD. As Christ declared the law is summed up in two things, love your neighbor as yourself and love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
Everything else is legal parsing that declines into legalistic rules and regulations. Of Faith Hope and Love, Love will last forever and therefore is absolute.
The way I most often can tell when something is really wrong is when I don’t want you to do it to me.
I think C.S. Lewis said that. Send my book to his estate. 😉
FROG.
ahhh…”Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter the circumstances or consequences surrounding a situation.”
Scratch your head at this one: Was Jesus, in His actions, morally absolute? Did He not say, “It has been said, ‘Do not murder’. But I say to you, ‘Do not even be agry at your brother.'” Now, what do we do with His action in the Temple prescinct as He turned over tables…in frustration (anger?) towards the business men who were using the Temple prescinct for their own benefits? We would go the moral consequentalist route to protect Jesus from seeming hypocrital to His own teaching…”Right is right and wrong is wrong…depending upon the situation or circumstance you are in.” Or, we would argue…”SInce they were not following Him, they were not His ‘brothers’.
You could go on and on…and it would be very fun to do so. I do know this…you take the moral absolute route and you have to nearly do away with grace.
FROG
A few thoughts…
1. It seems that some believe in “moral absolutes” when applyng them to others, but not so much when applying them to themselves.
2. “Moral Absolutes” would seem to negate the need for constant relationship with God. Once you knew the “rules”, you may not need Him day to day.
3. I think it would be fun if “Moral Absolute” was the name of an alcoholic beverage.
FROG
I keep seeing these armored cars around town with the logo painted on: “The System is the Solution.” I argue with them every time! Then after one such encounter, a radio preacher announced over my car radio “We have got to get back to preaching the gospel of moral absolutes!” I argued aloud (and with colorful words…on the way to church!) with that well-meaning brother (
…Gonna have to go back to reading books and talking on my cell phone while I’m driving; this is getting too dangerous(: !
Systems of moral abssolutes…that’s the problem with American Christianity.
Dont hear what i am NOT saying.
I am in favor of morals, and morality, and absolutes.
But:
“God’s revelation has nothing whatever to do with morality.”
-Jacques Ellul
Don Miller quote:
Quote:
For a guy like Dobson-as good a person and teacher as he is-I don’t think he cares about whether homosexuals go to heaven or hell. I think he cares about building a utopia. He cares about building a Salt Lake City, Utah for Christians. I realize that sounds strong, but if he cared about whether homosexuals knew Christ, he would print tracts for homosexuals, not fight Congress….
….In my opinion-and this is me judging him (Dobson) from a couple weeks I spent with Dr. Dobson-that ministry (helping homosexuals out of the lifestyle)is a token. I would bet he spends more money lobbying Congress than he does converting gays. He has to throw a bone to some sort of conversion ministry in order to avoid the label. But his money is where his heart is, plain and simple. The only reason he is doing that is so he can say he’s got this thing on the backburner, so you can’t tell him he hates people. I don’t think he really cares about the grace of Jesus as much as he does the morals of God.
He will not speak against Mormonism because he is a moralist and they a re moralists, too–they have this in common. I think Dobson uses the battle or war metaphor almost exclusively in dealing with these issues. I am not saying he is a bad person and we should be against him; I am saying his motive is morality and not the gospel This, to me , is the difference bewteen the two arguments:
One wants people to know Christ.
The other wants people to stop sinning and ruining our country.
-Donald Miller, p 142-43, “Faith of my Fathers: Conversations with Three Generations of Pastors about Church, Ministry and Culture,
I think we often confuse moral absolutes with objective reality – as if we can prove that it is always wrong to do something in the same way we can prove the earth is round.
I like what Justin and Scotty and others have to say.
Justin makes a good point about “dark matter” in relation to this topic. We can’t quite prove dark matter’s existence (yet) like we have proven the earth is round, but we can infer it’s presence.
I agree with others that love is a key here, and like Scotty, when it comes to moral absolutes, I’d rather be kind than right. James reminds us that mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)
FROG
Something we define in order to identify those who are or aren’t like us.
A self made religious standard that I wonder at times if God himself could conform to
or would want to.
Since we are created in His image, we are born with certain moral absolutes that we know is right and what is wrong based on God and His Word.
In my opinion each person defines his or her own moral absolute. In other words, people will decide what they will or will not do according to their understanding of their Creator’s and their respective nation’s laws. As a result, the moral absolute is not absolute and in most people covers an entire gamut of moral aptitude.
Moral Absolute
Sounds like an advertising campaign for a new flavored Vodka.
Personally I like moral imperative, watch the movie Real Genius for the answer.
I’m commenting without reading the other comments because I don’t want my mind to be swayed or anything, ha ha ha!
Wouldn’t it be nice and tidy for us if there was something completely black and white to call our Moral Absolute….but Jesus laid it out: love God, love your neighbour. That is not black and white, but living technicolour, with all the shades and nuances of real life and messy relationships. I believe that God refuses to make it so easy to follow Him that we wouldn’t need Him to do it. We don’t get a checklist. We are left in the rainbow of glorious confusion (How do I love God, who is my neighbour?, etc.) so that we must constantly go back to the only Absolute, our God who does not change.
cultural oxymoron
Frog? 2 words for moral absolute: Jesus Christ
The moral absulute is to Love as Christ modeled, and put Love into action. Morals will take care of themselve if we love others through action.
My answer……….doesn’t exist.
FROG…i think.
Given the right situation I might hold the view that their is a moral absolute. But in the meantime I will use love, wisdom, prayer and discernment to make sound ethical decisions. And I hope that I am wearing my “Mercy” t-shirt and not my “Moral Absolute” t-shirt when it comes time to ‘judge’ others.
FROG
Moral absolute… Analogous to “dark matter” (from Wikipedia: In astronomy and cosmology, dark matter is hypothetical matter that is undetectable by its emitted radiation, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter.) Humans seem to lack the capacity to fully understand it, but to the extent that we do it allows us to better understand ourselves and the reality in which we exist.
Jesus is absolutely moral.
FROG
Moral absolute – an idea or belief that will vary between cultrues and religions which constitutes an unchangable truth.
The moral absolute of Christianity should be that, because of the death and resurection of Christ, those whom profess Christ shall have eternal life. Sadly, few of the various Christendom belief sets (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc) cannot fully agree on who has truly professed Christ and if it was done in the “correct” way.
FROG: Morale Absolute: Love one another.
The only moral absolute is Jesus Christ.
FROG–my first time commenting…
Sounds like just another man made word to give man a good reason to be a legalist. Like someone just wanted a “trump card” in life and came up with these fancy two words to justify their prerogative of judgment on another. I personally think the words are just an excuse to not face the truth–and allow the Holy Spirit to pierce our hearts with Christ.
that’s my take on it
FROG:
Moral absolute ad personam don’t exist
FROG
I just realized I forgot to put FROG when I commented earlier. That was my first time commenting on this blog.
The primary definition of MORAL is:
a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior
b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior
c: conforming to a standard of right behavior
d: probable though not proved
ABSOLUTE is defined as:
a: free from imperfection
b: free or relatively free from mixture
c: outright, unmitigated
d: positive, unquestionable
Therefore, we can define a MORAL ABOSOLUTE as: Probable though not proven principles of right or wrong behavior that are unquestionable, unmitigated and free from imperfection or mixture.
Hmmm.
Because we cannot have something probable and not proven also be unquestionable or unmitigated, as we attempt to convince others of what we believe to be MORAL ABSOLUTES, we find it an impossible task… a mere chasing after the wind. For as Solomon said in Eccl 2:11: “Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind; nothing was gained under the sun.”
We must simply follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in our own lives, and pray for the Holy Spirit to conform the hearts of others to His truth. This is how we will determine, situation by situation, what is the moral absolute in that scenario. For we cannot follow our own ways as “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Prov 16:25)
Bottom line: A MORAL ABSOLUTE is only found in the heart of a man when under the true conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is where our “probable though not proven” is confirmed or denied as “unquestionable and unmitigated.” And it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can uphold the right behavior that the Holy Spirit has confirmed and walk it out.