Back in February of this year (2009), I had the privilege of speaking at George Fox Seminary with Len Sweet, MaryKate Morse, Alan Hirsch, and Dan Kimball.
During the panel discussion, Alan Hirsch slipped into “instigator mode” (I think he was bored that day or was thirsty for a good ole’ fashioned brawl). Alan asked, “Frank, what do you think of the clergy, and do you see a place for it?”
Having read and endorsed my book Pagan Christianity, Alan knew full well where I stood on the subject. My answer was simple: “Some of my best friends are clergymen … I shall put a period at the end of that sentence.” To which the audience laughed. We then went on to other matters.
The irony in Alan’s question was that we were all sitting in a seminary named after a man who was vehemently opposed to the clergy system and was sorely persecuted for his critique of it.
The full answer to Alan’s question is that my views on the clergy are identical to that of George Fox himself.
I felt that answering the question in this way could have created a potential riot (there were a good number of clergy in the room), so I chose to give the response I did, which brought some needed comic relief to the anticipated tension that Alan’s question brought to the audience.
That said, there are two things I want to share on the subject today:
First, I’ve become quite amazed at the number of pop “church” books that have come out since the release of Pagan Christianity which are trying quite desperately to defend the clergy/laity divide. A number of these books present themselves to be new, radical, and offering a different perspective on church.
If I may be candid, they merely rearrange the liturgical furniture and tweak the ecclesiastical vocabulary while leaving untouched the root issues of the church’s problems. None of them deal with the sacred cow of the clergy system—the pink elephant in the room that many Christians dare not touch.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”
~Upton Sinclair
Most of these books are merely a rehash of most church renewal books that have come out over the last 50 years. Band-Aids and patchwork operations applied to a defective ecclesiology. And to quote Led Zeppelin, “the song remains the same.” That always happens when one deals with the symptoms of a problem rather than the root/systemic causes.
Point: You can rearrange the chairs on the Titanic all day long, but the ship is still going down.
Second, in this regard, I wish to point my readers to the work of Jon Zens. Zens is one of the few scholars outside the institutional church who is writing 100 years ahead of his time. A former clergy-man himself, Zens effectively shreds all the typical justifications for the clergy caste system and turns them into confetti. About a year ago the “Zens-Master” (as I like to call him) went nose-to-nose with another scholar and turned the shredder on high. You can read Jon’s incredible exchange here.
Click here to read Jon’s many articles
But be forewarned: They are not for the faint in heart.
“The New Testament doctrine of ministry rests therefore not on the clergy-laity distinction but on the twin and complementary pillars of the priesthood of all believers and the gifts of the Spirit. Today, four centuries after the Reformation, the full implications of this Protestant affirmation have yet to be worked out. The clergy-laity dichotomy is a direct carry-over from pre-Reformation Roman Catholicism and a throwback to the Old Testament priesthood. It is one of the principal obstacles to the church effectively being God’s agent of the Kingdom today because it creates a false idea that only “holy men,” namely, ordained ministers, are really qualified and responsible for leadership and significant ministry. In the New Testament there are functional distinctions between various kinds of ministries but no hierarchical division between clergy and laity.”
~Dr. Howard Snyder
“Increasing institutionalism is the clearest mark of early Catholicism—when church becomes increasingly identified with institution, when authority becomes increasingly coterminous with office, when a basic distinction between clergy and laity becomes increasingly self-evident, when grace becomes increasingly narrowed to well-defined ritual acts … such features were absent from first generation Christianity, though in the second generation the picture was beginning to change.”
~James D. G. Dunn
Living Without Offense
Hi Frank,
While I have only currently read Pagan Christianity, your blogs and newsletters are both incredibly encouraging and challenging. Being in a new country, I don’t often get the same level of straight talk that I get from those emails. They’ve prompted me to action.
Thanks again,
Ben (New Zealand)
Frank, I really have enjoyed three of your books, especially “Pagan Christianity”. I really enjoy the freedom of relying on Christ for everything. Thank you for your work. I live in a very rural community and would like to be a part of an organic church, but there doesn’t seem to be one in the area. Could you please pray that God would plant one?
Great! Thanks for the clarification…I actually have read PC and enjoyed…was only concerned your (well-considered) comments would be taken out of that context. Thanks for listening to His voice, and encouraging us to do same!
Thanks Jim. Appreciated.
But I wonder, Frank, if this is too sweeping: “the office of modern pastor is unbiblical”. I completely agree that, for the most part, the people’s expectations and most pastors’ training makes most situations unbiblical in their divide…
…but I wonder, does just the existence of a person known as “pastor” automatically entail this unfortunate situation? I’m witnessing more and more cases where it does not…
Jim, the arguments behind my statements regarding the modern pastoral office and role in this blog are unfolded and argued in detail with historical, biblical, and social documentation in Chapter 5 of “Pagan Christianity.” The statements made on the blog cannot be fully understand without reading what’s presented in that chapter. It’s far more complicated than the name “pastor” or even if those who populate the office are good, God-loving people (in many if not most cases they are). Interestingly, 1700 pastors a month leave the clergy system in the U.S. That’s up from 1400 a few years ago. There’s a reason for this.
Dittos to Jared on I wish Frank had said it and most wouldn’t have ‘gotten it’ if he had.
I agree with you totally, Frank, about the clergy/laity divide. But I have to take issue with people saying the clergy system is a ‘throwback to the OT priesthood.” I can see why people say that, when that system is used to justify so much garbage, but I have spent a lot of time pondering it and I don’t think it’s quite fair and makes it look like God changed his mind somewhere along the line.
Because the sacrificial system had a priesthood and was made up of very ordered rituals that God insisted they follow precisely, some think He wants ritualistic worship and extreme order and hierarchical leadership structures, but I don’t see it that way at all.
We mustn’t forget that that whole system was a picture of Christ. It had to be precisely perfect because every aspect foreshadowed Him and His Work. The sacrifices were a picture of Him and the priests were too. They were there to provide a clear path to a relationship with God if you wanted it, but nowhere in the entire system were the people told where and how to pray, what and when to sing, what to do during ‘meetings,’ how to dress, etc. Your salvation was provided for in a very specific manner, but beyond that was total freedom. Only 3 times a year were the men supposed to go to Jerusalem for feasts, (not every Sabbath!) and there were a few sacrifices to make and traditions to follow, but mostly totally unspecified celebration time. It was mostly just the priests who were busy following specific rules for all the different sacrifices, while the people were free from schedules like that. Just as Jesus had to accomplish very specific things in a very precise way for us, but we are now free to enjoy the result. (Jesus alone is the High Priest, and the rest of us are all priests and equal. Even in the priestly system only the high priest had a status above the others. All the other priests equally shared the temple duties. So all believers share the work of the ministry/church together, with Christ in charge.) And for hundreds of years before the Mosaic system was established, there was even more freedom: anyone could sacrifice anywhere, at anytime they wanted, although doubtless there were a few guidelines that had been handed down about which animals were appropriate, etc. God wanted all the people to come directly before Him but they were afraid, so they were the ones who demanded someone else to speak to God for them — it wasn’t what God wanted at all. Even in the old system, you brought a specified sacrifice but your prayers were your own. There were not even specific prayers for the priest. The blood cleared the way for your own relationship to God that wasn’t really controlled by the priest in any way.
When given the opportunity to set up any kind of government He wanted to, I find it instructive that God first got the consent of the governed, and then chose to set up an extremely limited government with no officials other than judges (to settle disputes and criminal cases) and with minimal interference with people’s daily lives, all based on law and a shared moral code. He didn’t want them to have kings. He warned them that kings would get all organized and make up more rules for them and oppress them. Sounds like a shared community life based on our relationship to Christ with the people relying on the wisdom of older believers during disputes and crises.
When they set up the synagogues later, they had nothing to do with the temple system. They were free to have whatever kind of local meetings they wanted to and anyone could participate or not, because God had not issued any commands about that at all. (I know they became encrusted with lots of manmade rules and traditions, sooner or later, but those had nothing to do with either the sacrificial system or the rest of the Law, so cannot be argued to have anything to do with what God wanted then or now.)
Throughout the whole O.T you rarely see priests doing anything beyond minding the temple business. God raised up others to ‘lead’ like prophets and judges who could be absolutely anybody, even women! There never was any formal ordination system for prophets and judges. They didn’t need priestly approval. They just appeared when God sovereignly raised them up. Yet people recognized that they had spiritual authority. And they didn’t boss people around or lead weekly required meetings, they delivered people from bondage and pointed them back to God when they strayed. Some of those leaders like Moses or David are also used as an excuse today for hierarchy in the church, but they were also types of Christ and, properly understood, point to His direct leadership of His people, not to any system of human leadership.
In the same way God has raised up many prophetic leaders throughout church history to help Him deliver His people from bondage and/or lead them back to Himself, and they have never been officially appointed by any humans for that task. Usually, if not always, they were thrown out of whatever system they belonged to for their activities. Yet many recognized that they had spiritual authority anyway. Sadly people often set them up as ‘kings’ later, but the fact that God invariably chooses to use ordinary believers to lead an exodus from the prevailing religious system should speak volumes about His nature.
So what I am saying is that even the OT system isn’t a good excuse for the present clergy/laity system, so that system is not really a ‘throwback’ to it. There isn’t a big dichotomy between the Old Testament and the New and the sacrificial system and the nation of Israel weren’t really like they make them out to be anyway.
I do agree with Howard Snyder. But that doesn’t mean the Lord changed His mind. If you remember, the priesthood was given to all of Israel. But all the tribes forfeited it except for Levi. So that’s how it was given to one tribe. In the NT, God’s original thought to have a kingdom of priests was restored through the church, the new Israel. Though many in the body do not live in the good of it and have opted for an OT kind of priestly system, a la, clergy and laity.
Frank, as always I thank you for your committment to the truth. Its always easy to preach to the choir, but the real challenge comes when we messengers must go out and deliver the message to our well intentioned, good hearted brothers and sisters in Christ. I was excited a year and half a go when God changed my job description from “salesman” to “messenger”. I’ve learned that you’re not always having the welcome mat put out for you, but you know your boss (God) is pleased with your obedience to deliver His message regardless of the result that comes from it. It hasn’t been easy for me since I embarked on this journey, but your books and writings have given me enouragement knowing I am not alone.
Kudos to you, Ty. It must take a great deal of courage to take the route you’re taking, when your livelihood was tied up in preaching.
There was a nice dichotomy of solid food and heavily processed stuff that was easier to swallow presented that day for those who had difficulty swallowing some tough reality. However, I do find myself wishing that you had said you shared George Fox’s position on clergy. I think you give too much credit to others. I’m not sure that so many people would’ve gotten the inside reference until later.
I hope to look you up, again, the next time you’re traveling this way.
Thank you for the book Pagan Christianity. i have wondered for years since I was saved about church practices. I have never felt totally comfortable in the church setting because it always seemed to be at odds with what I read in my bible. I thought I was just being contrary or rebellious. I never really embraced or participated to the degree that was in my heart and still don’t and perhaps now I know why. The longer I walk with Jesus the more I want of him and less of programs etc and I guess the time is now and that is why I am reading your book. Now I will pray and trust Jesus to show me what next. Thank you again for your courage both of you and may the Lord bless you richly.
Frank, thanks for writing these blogs and books, I spent 10 years. as a “paid” pastor/leader, (5, ironically in a Friends “church” Fox’s group) struggling to know if church was even close to the book of Acts. I no longer believe that taking money to be a leader is what God intended and I have left that “game”. Now I am trying to navigate how to. live in community when most of my friends are busy with putting on a Sunday Performance. Your writings remind me that my decision to leave the trappings of Protestant Tradition is not only good but right. Now as I navigate my next step to live in commnity and a part of God’s Church, I appreciate your honest writings and look forward to being part of what I have come to believe is a movement of God! 🙂
Some ponderings:
I wonder if language is what frightens the clergy and the laity for different reasons.
The clergy, having committed their lives to Jesus, and having ever so diligently, honourably, humbly, sincerely, carried on the ways of the church in the best way they knew, as human beings, for the sake of God’s people. Perhaps there is language that denies their sacrifice rather than expresses gratitude for what they have given and respectfully, relationally, offer loving words to them of the “more so much more” that Jesus has for all of us. Listening goes a long way.
The laity, many of whom are used to being led, will benefit from the clergy returning to heartfelt compassion for themselves as they learn to love themselves as God loves them so that they would awaken and their prescence would naturally awaken those near to them.
The holy spirit has a way of penetrating our hearts (often without words) bringing a willing heart to the place of humility, tenderness, respect, courage, strength and love. When we ask the holy spirit to come first that is what is important.
Good points by John Zens. I did read the whole Witherington review, as well as your responses, but I didn’t get through Zens’ entire treatise, though I found it well written and interesting. It was just that I already agreed with him. I’m looking forward to reading some of the articles on his website, though.
I too have good friends who are professional pastors and I don’t wish to offend or trouble them. God can handle speaking to them when they and He are ready to deal with the situation. So unless He tells me to, I feel no compunction to go out of my way to confront them. Besides, I’m just a lay person. 😉 I don’t think they’d listen to me. Really.
Most of the pastors I’ve known have seemed to me to be sincere and godly men honestly trying to follow God’s will for their lives. Nevertheless, I agree with you that this is an institution that has caused more damage than good. Certainly pastors have done a lot of good, but the damage is in the loss of 98% of the gifts of the church in favor of a few gifted persons–mostly men.
I believe that Jesus is consolidating and perfecting and building His church, preparing His bride to be spotless and free of blemishes, etc. in view of His soon return. The pastorate position is one that has stood in the way of all members functioning (though not intentionally in most cases), and it’s just got to be on its way out. I know that’s hard for a lot of people, but sometimes hard is good, and what is tough now will one day be looked on as a great mercy and blessing.
You know, the Kingdom of God is a big place. There is room for the gifted in all areas to serve God’s desire. It may be that someone needs to hear a pastor to come to Christ. Besides, the pastors are already (sometimes wrongly) trained. They just need a new bit in their mouths to turn millions along with themselves. Redirecting that training could be a powerful force. Oh, if they answered an alter call to the Eternal Purpose ! God has not given up on us, we should not give up on pastors. And, I don’t attend instutional church:)
Dwayne, the issue is not “giving up on pastors.” The issue is that the office of modern pastor is unbiblical and that’s why so many pastors are frustrated and why 1700 in the U.S. leave the clergy system each month. As long as the Lord’s people play Ostrich and ignore that, nothing will change in a given church. Thankfully God is getting what He wants in various places all over the earth. I again commend Jon Zens’ work on this. It’s superb.
Yes, absolutely no excuse to build some kind of wall in the minds of the body of Christ between “leaders” and “not” – very encouraging developments afloat, even in the “Big Church” where God is working through those He has gifted in building up the Body to break those walls down. Truly the Spirit of Christ is hard at work!
awesome blog!
Once again, thanks for doing what you do with an excellence that can only come from Christ.