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Frank Viola | Beyond Evangelical
Official Blog of Author & Speaker Frank Viola. Digging below the surface and moving beyond the shallows in today's Christianity.
Confusion Over Organic Church Abounds
On the Atonement
Hello Frank
I have some questions I hope you can answer:
1) Who sends a missionary to plant a Church? God or men or both?
2) You are a missionary, right? Who sent you to your church-fellowship?
3) You say churchplanters should leave their churches to elders, right? How long have you been in your church and when do you think you will leave? Or have you left already?
4)Frank when you say “You can’t establish that which you’ve not experienced yourself”, that sounds to me like something we say if we don’t believe that God has the control and lead people through the Holy Spirit. What’s your comment?
5) What’s the difference then between this you-must-be-sent-out-by-an-organic-church-to-be-able-to-plant-one-formula and the structures of contemporary “institutional” so called “apostolic churches”?
Martin: only have a second. Here my my replies.
1. I don’t use the word “missionary” because I don’t think it’s biblical and conjures up ideas that are unscriptural. In FINDING ORGANIC CHURCH, I discuss where the word “missionary” came from and when. It’s a fairly recent term. The Bible uses “sent one” and “worker” and uses the image of planting (thus “church planter” is derived from it). God commissions, the Holy Spirit with a church or an older worker sends. Details for this w/ scriptural support are found in the first section of FINDING ORGANIC CHURCH.
2. I never label myself, that’s for others who know me personally/directly and know my work personally/directly to do. I hate labels anyways. I was “sent out” in Nov. 1995 by an organic church in Central Florida that I spent 8 years living with.
3. Not in the beginning. Some churches acknowledge elders formally, others do not. This is confirmed by the NT also. See FINDING ORGANIC CHURCH for details. My coworkers and I are presently planting and working with various churches in different locations. We spent 16 months planting one recently then we left it on its own. That’s the way we do it anyway.
4. My comment is to see the pattern in FINDING ORGANIC CHURCH when it comes what the NT called “ekklesia.” It’s also my observation. For instance, I’m sure that God can save a soul via an angel preaching the gospel. But he typically uses people who know Him to share the good news. On the other hand, God can do anything He wants. No argument there.
5. My opinion as I’ve articulated in my books is that many groups that call themselves “churches” whether they meet in a basilica or a house don’t match what we read in the NT regarding what the meaning of “church” was for the early Christians and biblical writers. At the same time, God uses all forms of church. As I’ve stated in my books, God will work in any place wherein He can find open hearts to Him. But we can limit Him. I’m someone who is interested in the fullness of Jesus Christ and not settling for less than that. I’m not alone in that view. But not all feel the same of course. People’s mileage varies.
Thank you very much for this. It’s absolutely helpful.
Dear Frank,
I live in Hungary, and I have no idea how to get your books: Pagan Christianity and Reimaging Church. I am slowly getting to the conclusion that “churchianity” is not what Christ wanted for the disciples. As a travelling missionary I visit families, as a biblical episcopos (episcopos and episceptomai means not to be bishop (overseer) but to visit the needy in the NT. “I was in prison but you did not episceptomai me.” “Pure religion is to episceptomai the poor, sick, widow…”). For example from realizing this truth and other disturbing things (tithing, concertianity, program-driven gatherings) I realized the whole “church” thing is wrong. And researching about this thing I found you on the Internet.
Also I realize that in home visitings there always happen some God-incident! A neighbor is there, a worker is there, an unbeliever starts to be open to the pure Jesus things, and so on, because it is so informal and natural, and not programmend (artificial). I found that “church” things are always derived from the OT (the shadow, LAW) rather than from the NT (the reality, LOVE).
So I am so interested about your books, and I desire also to translate them to Hungarian. I’m sorry about writing here but I don’t know any contacts. If you could help me, I would appreciate it!
With Sincere Heart,
Attila
You can order all of my books from any country, including Hungary, here http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org – but be sure to read the directions very carefully at the bottom of the page. Thanks!
Hi,
I’m learning from all these comments on organic church. There is just one and only ONE determinant in organic, without it its not organic, maybe inorganic. It’s the letter C. In things C stands for CARBON. In the above discussions, C stands for CHRIST. Where He is the Head, the Center, His (manifest) preeminence(Col 1:18) makes it organic otherwise its not organic. Of course He is the author and finisher. Either Christ or Self that sits in the throne of my heart , it could not be both. Either Christ or Self the driver, it could not be both. Col. 1:18 .-mcadatal, Baguio, Philippines
Frank is absolutely right in that our Lord Jesus has to lead each of us along our own path. The NT ekklesias contained a variety of people with different abilities and giftings. And the Lord led each of them to bless the others accordingly. Some were led into teaching, helps or praying for healing. Some were led into evangelising, which is my own passion and Im sure that it shows. But they are all nothing without the loving grace that He is always trying to graft into our hearts. And neither will our lives will not be fruitful if we do not receive His rhema words when we talk with Him.
A loving and submitted relationship with Him is everything.
And I do believe that the Lord is now rebuilding His house in regards to this.
@ Frank and Milt:
I was thinking…
It’s no surprise that the word “organic” has become THE THING that everyone is talking and trying to experience (whether they understand it or not). There has always been a hunger in institutionalism for something real, meaningul and deep that I think that’s why we have all kinds of movements and denominations within religious christianty.
Barna’s “Revolution” gave us numbers that show this hunger within institutinalism. The imonk blogged about it and Frank gave us all words to express it. But as always happen in the religious/market system we want the magical formula a la “growing-driven” way that produce masive numbers that proof the “succes” of our “spiritual” movement. We don’t want to wait what appears to be the slow work of the Spirit of God witin us.
This is sad and few are willing to pay the price of being still and wait in the Lord.
Have mercy of us, dear Jesus!
Charlie and Frank,
Some good conversation here.
The term “organic church” has, in many cases, just become another label to place on an otherwise institutional setting. What I see is that normally people who use that term are furthering some sort of church growth movement. It’s still based upon the same old paradigm. But now the term “organic” is being used to make a church growth system sound legitimate and scriptural. But none of the tenets pertaining to the New Testament example are found such as; the centrality and supremacy of Christ, the Headship of Christ, the functioning of the body of Christ (without a clergy), and the oneness or community life based upon the life found in the Godhead.
Instead we are, once again, beaten down with that age old tool called “the Great Commission” to get out there and evangelize our neighborhoods so that our group can grow quickly and we can divide and multiply within a few months.
That just doesn’t resonate within me as being either scriptural or life giving.
That just doesn’t sound ORGANIC at all to me!
Meeting outside of an official church building does not make church organic. Nomadic, maybe, but not organic.
Organic essentially means life derived from life. Organic church is derived from the very life of Jesus Christ, but most Christians today, in my experience, don’t have a clue as to how to actually live by His life. If they did, I would have learned a lot more about it by now.
There’s more to the ekklesia than where we meet and in what order we do things. It’s about receiving Christ as the life giving Spirit, and that can’t be bottled, manufactured, or cloned.
Right on Mark: I’ve been trying to get this idea across for years now, but it’s exceedingly difficult.
@Lee. Of course u can repost and quote whatever u want and u don’t need say nothing about the source of the quote. I’m just glad that the example was clear and u like it.
@Frank. The good thing about an authentic organic expression of the church is that people may try to “clone” it, but as it happens in sciencie and nature; things that are artificially reproduce and grown may look like the original but their life have a short span and the can’t reproduce and multiply in a natural way. God bless the genuine expression of his body.
Charlie: to add a footnote — Paul draws the human body as the image for the ekklesia. Humans do not reproduce rapidly. They mature first and then they reproduce at the right season. If not, it wreaks havoc. We don’t throw out toddlers out into the work and ask them to reproduce. It’s artificial and mechanical to mandate that an ekklesia reproduce rapidly. This becomes another form of misguided legalism. And it usually ends up with a very shallow group of people who have no sustainability or depth in Christ. Groups who are taught this and then seek to apply it dissolve fairly quickly. Groups who mature naturally in Christ and then have a nose to discern the season (as I explain in “Finding Organic”) multiply in a sustainable way. Because it comes from life, not an external teaching that’s disconnected with seasons and growth in life. I’ve been watching this phenomenon for the last 22 years of meeting with organic churches, and it is consistent. The record of the New Testament confirms it as well.
Charlie, I love & want to repost your quote,”Organic is a quality not a label. You can add a plastic badge saying “100% natural” to a can of Fanta, but that doesn’t convert it in real orange juice” and would like to be able to properly attribute it, please.
I strongly believe that much of what is going on under the “organic” label has become just another franchise in the denominational party of institusionalism. Sadly, there’s a tragic tendency within us (that we have to fight against) to feel secure inside of a clear system of development. This is what we call religion; and I don’t see nothing organic in a religious system. We could try to hide it behind a “more natural way of relationship” facade, but at the end is just another people/market driven religion.
Organic is a quality not a label. You can add a plastic badge saying “100% natural” to a can of Fanta, but that doesn’t convert it in real orange juice.
Charlie. You put it better than me. There is a huge difference between a system that uses the label “organic” and the authentic organic expression of the body of Christ where CHRIST is Head and where HE is ALL … i.e., the organic church that’s envisioned in the NT (where there is no clergy system present by the way).
I can call a plastic orange organic all day, but that don’t make it so.
Example: Occasionally I’ll get an email from someone saying they read a book about “organic church” (not mine) and they are “doing” organic church, and it will be signed, “Reverend Tom” … or “Pastor Marie.”
Hu? What’s wrong with this picture?
The confusion is just massive.
When you express the true meaning of Organic Church, what has been the response of Catholics? It seems I read a lot about Prodestant views but not much on Catholic views of True Organic Church.
I really enjoy your books and look forward to reading Jesus Manifesto.
It depends. I can only speak for the response to my work. Those Catholics who read it (and respond) tend to agree with and appreciate the theology behind it.
Long live the authentic Organic Church!!! 🙂
“Sent out by an existing organic church” – sounds institutionally “formula-matic” and begs the Adam and Eve belly button question, Frank. Java Journey is ekklasia growing organically – but she was birthed by vision, prayer and perseverance. There was no existing organic church that sent us out, in fact it was the frustration of trying to operate by organized, conventional means that woke my wife up first and then me. Now it could be that God’s ecclesiastical recalibrating voices – such as yourself, George Barna, Neil Cole, Reggie McNeal, Leonard Sweet… were chiefly influential and could be deemed as “existing” – nevertheless, J2 does not follow this part of the pattern you often espouse.
Jeff: nothing formulaic about it. The calling, preparing, and sending is a Divine tendency that goes back to the Godhead. I trace it from there throughout the NT in “Finding Organic Church.” It’s relatively easy to start a house church. It’s another thing to equip a group to live by Christ’s indwelling life and to display that life together under the direct headship of Jesus. Again: I go into the differences in “Finding Organic.” We’re talking about apples and oranges here. The confusion comes with the terms “organic” and “house church.” They mean a slew of VERY different things today.