A friend who read JESUS MANIFESTO sent me this quote. It reminded him of one of the main points we make throughout the book:
The first thing to remember is that we must never separate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The Christians who are most focused on their own spirituality may give the impression of being the most spiritual . . . but from the New Testament’s point of view, those who have almost forgotten about their own spirituality because their focus is so exclusively on their union with Jesus Christ and what He has accomplished are those who are growing and exhibiting fruitfulness. Historically speaking, whenever the piety of a particular group is focused on our spirituality that piety will eventually exhaust itself on its own resources. Only where our piety forgets about us and focuses on Jesus Christ will our piety nourished by the ongoing resources the Spirit brings to us from the source of all true piety, our Lord Jesus Christ.
~ Sinclair Ferguson
Helping God’s Family in this Economy
Hi Frank,
I am ejoying the “Pagan Christianity” book very much. I have had questions for years that left me feeling like I was on the outside of Christianity looking in, yet in your book, you cover these issues showing me that it is surely the Spirit of God guiding me through my wanting more out of my relationship with Him, and that the protestant things we do, are not His ways but our own ways. So, thank you for writing this. I remember reading in your book about Low Church/High Church and want to review that but I can not find it in the book. I just want to understand the definition of each.
It’s in the beginning. You can also look it up on the Internet. Don’t forget the sequel though. “Pagan Christianity” isn’t a stand alone book. http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org
Frank – I read the interview. Thanks. It’s very interesting that you see a consistency between the description you gave in PC? of the typical organic church gathering, and this particular 3-hr long event. (It also eerily shares many similarities with Justin the Martyr’s account of the early 2nd century New Testament ecclesia, in his First Apology, Chapter LXVII).
Point taken. Both RCC and EOC are liturgical and hierarchical, no doubt. It’s the mystical approach of the EOC, however, that seems to makes them far different form each other. That’s all I’m saying. Reading Frederica Mathewes-Green’s powerful and edifying little book “The Illumined Heart: The Ancient Christian Path of Transformation” made me realize this. The mysticism of Orthodox spirituality is no joke.
Ric: The description I gave of one meeting in PC as an example is completely consistent with all the other kinds of “church meetings” I’ve described on the blog and in other places, like “Reimagining Church.” The notable characteristics are 1) every member is functioning or is free to function, 2) members are sharing Jesus Christ not dead, lifeless information, 3) the meeting is under the Lord’s headship, 4), Jesus Christ is being displayed, 5. the meetings are often marked by the Lord’s creativity so every meeting is different thought it holds the same basic characteristics listed here, 6) everyone is edified and principalities and powers are shamed.
All I’ll say in response to next point is that some people I know who were formerly in the ECO religious system came into genuine organic church life and remarked: “In the ECO, we had the theology down, but it wasn’t practical. It’s was all theoretical. This experience has made it practical and real.”
There’s a titanic difference between the two, bro.
Hope that helps.
Frank – Thanks. I read “Pagan Christianity?” very thoroughly (I received it as a Christmas gift from a friend) and fellow students from my dorm community @ college had reading groups weekly to read “Reimagining Church.” I certainly follow this ministry and noticing much positive coming out from it.
Yes, if we focus entirely on Christ bereft of traditions, then we are left with a low church organic expression of the church.
What I struggle with is that the deadening caused by institutionalism, I see, is mostly found in the Roman Catholic Church and subsequent Protestant break offs. The mystical orientation of the Christian East (w/ its strong focus on spiritual disciplines and the “Jesus Prayer”), I think, keeps it from falling into that overly formalized, Scholastic, typically Roman legalistic/forensic orientation that shaped much of RCC and liturgical Protestantism. (Yes, it has clergy, hierarchy, etc., but only because they say Scripture as part and parcel of Holy Tradition, not standing outside next to it like the RCC and Protestant traditions). Just my $0.02. What do you think?
I think that there’s not much difference in the functional/practical way that an RCC operates from an EOC. It’s pretty much the same. (Except in Europe. There you must STAND for the entire service in the EOC!)
I’d suggest that you read my conversation with Neil Cole as well as the blogs on visiting an organic church & what does an organic church look like. They are all first-hand and very practical examples of what goes on in organic church life. The difference in that and the high-church liturgical churches is night and day.
Frank – The more I read about the organic church the more I see similarities it has with the ancient Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition, such as its strongly Christological mystical orientation:
I was wondering if you can offer some thoughts on Eastern Orthodoxy, since it seems to have much in common with various Christo-centric elements of the organic church (see Schmemann’s “For the Life of the World” for example), and is being sought after as an alternative to Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. Thanks.
Ric: My theology is very similar, the difference is that I follow the theology to its practical conclusions. And if one does so, you don’t end up with a high church liturgical tradition, but with the organic expression of church life. See my book “Reimagining Church” where I go into this. Also the talk I gave at George Fox Seminary on the podcast.
I think you have touched on an issue that is a greater threat to the organic church than probably anything else. One of my most beloved quotes comes from Spurgeon: “I looked at Jesus and the dove of peace flew into my heart. I looked at the dove of peace and it flew away.” Even the term “organic” can be used as an idolatrous substitute for the life of Christ – a shorthand buzzword that appeals to the ego’s insatiable appetite for distinction and that provides access to the enlightened inner circle of spiritual pundits. It took me almost three decades to see that there is a type of pride that could never be satisfied by becoming a Trump or a Gates, but that demanded the attention of the Trinity and the angels. And which better way to do so than to figure out what God REALLY had in mind with his church and to inform everybody accordingly. And there I was, with a greater collection of books on church than anyone else, blissfully oblivious to the fact that I had merely traded my Zeppelin LPs for more powerful idols. The most heady guruism is the one that whispers ‘there are no gurus’. That statement managed to attract more attention and respect than all my combined ministerial years of Pentecostalism, Charismania and ultimately Calvinism could do. Of course I loved Christ through it all, and of course I sought the truth. I was simply unaware that the wretched ego’s greatest craving was to hijack the bandwagon of the most noble pursuit. And it did. By the way, this is no subtle hint or accusation aimed at anyone. It is simply a word of experiential advice from a recovering Pharisee whose Pharisaic heart led him to take his eyes off Jesus and onto Jesus’ church. I looked at Christ and I saw his church. I looked at his church and it disappeared.
Bless you, Frank. Your books are a blessing.
Tobie: Thanks for the kind words. One of the main emphases of my ministry is that organic church isn’t about structure, a method, or a new way of “doing” church. It’s about a way of knowing the Lord Jesus Christ with others that’s rooted in the NT, but has been largely lost in mainstream Christianity today.
I’ve always maintained that a deep and profound relationship with Jesus Christ will lead to the issue of the church, and that will lead to its organic expression. I don’t see how anyone can come up with anything else if they begin to know the Lord in a deeper, more real way, and they read the New Testament without clerical glasses.
I read Matthew 11:28 this morning and got at whole new perspective that I think goes with this thread. “Come to me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Dake’s notes stated that ‘heavy laden’ in this context can mean weighed down by ceremony and ritual. I’ve always thought of this scripture as refering to work. I think Jesus is saying that one of the benefits from coming directly to him is rest from the burden of religion. Religion separates benefits from benefactor.
is it okay if we quote a part of the blog post, and link to it? technically speaking, i’m cut & copying a part of the article and linking to it on facebook. hoping thats fine.
Catherine: Yes, excerpts are fine with a link to the full article.
one of my brilliant sisters in Christ posted this quote recently and i thought it fit well with what you’ve shared here:
“It’s one thing to go through a crisis grandly, yet quite another to go through every day glorifying God when there is no witness, no limelight, no one paying even the remotest attention to us. If you are rightly devoted to the Lord Jesus, you have reached the lofty height where no one would ever notice you personally. All that is noticed is the power of God coming through you all the time.” ~ Oswald Chambers
That’s a great quote about the Benefactor! Humans tend to begin right but then we get sidetrack somewhere along the way. Another example is when a group tries to avoid vanity to serve Christ better but ends up focusing on wearing long dresses, not having make up and not cutting hair. The very vanity they are trying to avoid becomes the focus instead of Christ…sad but we are all prone to that in variuos forms.
Frank – that was an awesome comment from Sinclair. So true. He is our sanctification, holiness, etc.