I’ve been reading the nativity story again and am captured by the sheer wonder of it all. It truly is the greatest story ever told. Next week I plan to write a blog post about Joseph, as I feel there are lessons to learn from his life that are little talked about today. So stay tuned for that post Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday.
Last year a writer for Modern Reformation Magazine interviewed me. His questions covered a wide-range of subjects, some of which I’m asked about frequently.
Here’s the complete interview.
MR: In your opinion, what is the future of the emerging/emergent church movement? In what ways are you optimistic about the movement?
Frank: I’m not part of the emerging church movement nor am I part of emergent, so I’m not sure. I have talked with folks in the movement (or “conversation”) and they’ve seen it begin to splinter into a three different streams. One is toward a more liberal theology and outlook. The other is toward the missional church movement. And the third is toward a more postchurch theology and outlook.
MR: What does it mean to live a life of worship? How has worship shaped your understanding of God?
Frank: Worship doesn’t lead to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ leads to worship. Worship hasn’t shaped my understanding of God. The Lord Jesus Christ has. Knowing Christ intimately and exploring His riches leads to love, adoration, worship, awe, and sheer amazement. Living by Christ is a life of love and awe. He’s the most incredible Person in the universe. When we get a sighting of Him, we are forced to fall on our knees in adoration. This is more exciting and more real than what Christians typically mean when they use the word “worship.” So it’s been my experience anyway.
MR: What are your thoughts about Christian praise music? Is there a style of music or artist you prefer to listen to?
Frank: I was part of some of the cutting edge worship/praise movement. At first, it was thrilling. The music is captivating. But after awhile, it wears thin. Many of the songs are rooted in the Old Testament, “God is awesome, God is great, God is holy” etc. Few songs are about the riches of Jesus Christ in the New Testament and the depths of Christ. Further, many are what I call “7/11 songs” – 7 stanzas sung 11 times.
The best songs I’ve sung are those written by Christians as a group who are experiencing and exploring the riches of Christ together. These songs have great depth, power, and reality, and they reflect the richness of the body of Christ. I also enjoy some of the timeless hymns that speak profoundly about the glories of Christ, such as “Have you known Him, seen Him, heard Him?”
There’s an entire section in my book Finding Organic Church that explains how to write a Christ-centered song that moves beyond the shallows.
MR: What are your thoughts on preaching? What preachers do you admire? Do you find that modern preachers appeal to personal experience and narrative in their sermons (over biblical exegesis, exposition, etc)? What are your thoughts on Scriptural authority?
Frank: As George Barna and I have pointed out in Pagan Christianity, the modern “sermon” and New Testament preaching/teaching are two very different things.
As one who preaches and teaches, for me, the issue is life. Is the preacher/teacher speaking out of a revelation of Jesus Christ and are they sharing Christ, who is life, or something else?
I’ve often counted the number of times a person mentions Jesus during a message or sermon, and so often, the number is astounding. Sometimes He’s never mentioned in 60 minutes of preaching. Compare that over against how many times Paul of Tarsus mentioned the Lord Jesus in his letters. It’s mind-boggling.
For me, the issue is always: “Is this person giving me an ‘it’ or are they giving me a ‘HIM’ in their preaching?” But we cannot preach Him unless we know Him in the depths and unless we are captured by a sighting of His peerless worth.
I pray that God will raise up more preachers and teachers who can proclaim Christ in glory, power, and reality. A word that comes of out vision and experience.
A.B. Simpson once said, “Preaching without spiritual aroma is like a rose without fragrance. We can only get the perfume by getting more of Christ.”
I believe one of the greatest preachers of all time was T. Austin-Sparks. You can read his messages online. His message was Christ, through and through. He’s one of the men whose shoulders I stand on. A.B. Simpson was another giant in the land on this score.
As for the Scriptures, they reveal Christ who has been given all authority in heaven and earth. I believe they are authoritative, completely reliable, and inspired by God.
MR: What word of hope / challenge would you offer the growing younger evangelical movement? What word of hope / challenge would you offer the emergent / emerging movement?
Frank: The word of hope is also a challenge. To my mind, the choice for the body of Christ right now is not left vs. right. The future is found in a third path – a path of exploration rather than fortification. And that path is a person — the Lord Jesus Christ himself, our Northstar and Southern cross.
If the evangelical wing of the body and the emerging wing of the body do not return to a rediscovery of the centrality, the supremacy, the preeminence, the sovereignty and the absolute “Allness” of Jesus Christ, both are doomed.
Any hope for progress in the future is to return to Christ as “all in all.” And that’s always where God the Father and the Spirit are pointing their arrows . . . to know Christ deeply and intimately. And out of that knowing flows everything else.
Jesus Christ is Christianity, nothing more, nothing less. If we really get to know Him, we’ll never graduate beyond Him, for we will find that His riches are inexhaustible.
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Jesus Manifesto endorsed by Matt Chandler, Steve Brown, Ed Stetzer, Ed Young, Scot McKnight, and others.
Spiritual Transitions
Frank,
I’m new to your blog. My wife and I are enjoying reading your posts. I see that people are talking about contemplative spirituality here, and I think that this is relevant to the challenges facing the evangelical church. Forgive me if you’ve already answered this, however I haven’t seen the answer yet. Where do you stand on the subject of contemplative spirituality? I have seen it sweep across the landscape, even breaking into a major Pentecostal denomination. Do you see if as safe or not? If you don’t have time to respond properly, could you please point me to any blogs you’ve posted in the past which shed light on this subject? Thanks, Steve
“Contemplative” is a clay word. It can mean something non-Christian or it can mean “spiritual” as used in the NT. I don’t like the word myself and I don’t agree with a lot of the culture it’s associated with. My view would be like that of John Piper’s in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTbX_88vJyY – see also my blog post on Mysticism in the archives: https://www.frankviola.org/archives
Thanks, Frank. I really agree with your viewpoint on mysticism. I hate how the term “Christian Mysticism” is united together. Two diametrically opposed things in my mind. But, in today’s world….even the term “Christian Spirituality” could be misconstrued.
Concerning John Piper’s view on Contemplative Spirituality: In the past, I have done some thinking and studying on Spiritual Disciplines. This has caused me to see that there should be limits. I see you and John feel the same way. I am wary of where unbridled contemplative spirituality can take one (not to mention where mysticism has also gone wrong). In this sense, I am perplexed that people find value in the practices. I also think that if taken too far, these kind of practices can lead to a false gospel viewpoint.
Thanks for your sharing this information, as now I can look at exactly what the Puritan perspective is in practice. I must admit that I’ve never heard of it before. I think in the past…I’ve just said that the “word was quickened to a person by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.” But, alas, the language keeps changing and everything is always being redefined by later generations. : )
You are correct, Mike. There’s a difference between the emerging “conversation” and what some believe to have become the emergent “movement.” I have friends in the latter, and as you so rightly point out, I’ve sometimes been part of the conversation. Especially as it relates to the supremacy of Christ and the expression of the church. Good analysis as usual my friend.
Good interview (though I agree it seems they were ‘fishing’) & good conversation in the comments.
I’d agree that what used to be known as the ’emerging church conversation’ has naturally taken different directions, at least two: missional, which you’re right, tends to be a bit more conservative, and emergent, which tends to be a bit more progressive (using a term they’d likely prefer to ‘liberal.’) I’d say that burned-out folks from both camps can – for seasons or perhaps longer – form the ‘post-church’ category, though a few folks purport theological rationales for being post-church rather than simply church fatigue. (Interestingly, I think it’s certain voices in the ‘organic’ and ‘relational Christianity’ quarters that more vocally champion ‘post-church’ than anyone in either the missional or emergent milieus…)
With that said, I know missional folks who would characterize themselves as planting churches in decidedly ‘progressive’ cultures (the TransFORM Network comes to mind, as to the Outlaw Preachers), and emergent folks who see themselves as having a robustly evangelical (or ‘ancient-future’) hermeneutic. Both seem to be all over the spectrum it seems.
Without a doubt, though, ’emerging church’ is no longer seen as this monolithic marketing entity – and that’s a good thing I think. Jonathan Brink’s just-released State of Emergence 2010 post is must-reading by way of updates.
And I’d say, Frank, that as long as emergent folks still see themselves in a ‘conversation’ rather than a closed-set network with certain mandatory beliefs, that the friendliness toward them you so consistently espouse would make you ‘in’ – not in a ‘movement,’ but a conversation. Apparently Brink agrees. 🙂
Otto and Jeffrey: I’ve seen contemplative methods taught in a way where it simply brought boredom and death. I’ve seen similar practices, tied into beholding (2 Cor. 3:18) and communing with the Lord, that were life-giving and sustaining. And they go far beyond traditional prayer, Bible study, and even tongues. It’s all in what’s being taught exactly and how it’s being taught. And if it’s bringing someone to the Lord who is envisioned in the Scriptures or not.
Jeffrey: Len Sweet and I address your point in our book JESUS MANIFESTO. We cannot know the Trinintarian Community except in and through Jesus Christ. We elaborate on this point in the book.
Good point about the difference between the modern sermon and N.T. preaching. How we need the life of God flowing rather than the mind of man knowing!
I’ve been wondering if you were involved in the emerging church movement or not. I thought you were on the outer edges of the conversation but it seems to me that you have some similar insights without drawing directly from the movement.
Regarding your comments about evangelicals and emerging church all I can say is, “Amen and amen.” Seems many evangelicals are embracing the fortification attitude to protect their interpretation of orthodoxy. The emergent folk are embracing exploration but at times it seems only for the sake of exploring or just being different. Without a Christocentric hermeneutic or pursuing the depths of Jesus Christ respectively, both will miss the main point, the supremacy of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is our hope.
Jeffrey: I have friends who are part of emergent and have been invited to speak at two emerging church conferences. However, I’ve never considered myself to be part of it, as I don’t embrace liberal theology or postmodern deconstructionism. My position toward it would be very similar to N.T. Wright’s. Friendly, but not part of it. Today, it’s not really a cohesive conversation/movement, but has broken up into three streams. The missional stream is the one I’m mostly identified with. Albeit, my take on the Mission is *God’s eternal purpose* rather than saving lost souls or making *individual* disciples. “From Eternity to Here” is my key contribution to the missional conversation. “Jesus Manifesto” is as well.
We’re baptized into “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I see in the New Testament a continual dance among the Three Persons in the life of the believer – note the first chapter of I Thessalonians or Christ’s words in John chapters 14-16. The climax is “the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb” I think the church is to be a place of conscious fellowship in/with the Trinitarian Godhead. I liked your comment on preaching
“Is this person giving me an ‘it’ or are they giving me a ‘HIM’ in their preaching? But we cannot preach Him unless we know Him in the depths” I believe that knowing “Him” should be knowing each of the Three Persons in their fullness. I see this in Paul’s “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” Jesus is the door way into this Trinitarian spiritual reality “For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit”
A person in the earlier church – the 400’s- who seemed to live in this Trinitarian reality was St. Patrick of Ireland – his “Confession” found easily in translation on the web I think shows he knew the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as living reality/realities.
Otto, I tried and retried contemplative methods. For me they were fruitless, I ended up just trusting in the work and person of Jesus as my means of access and praying in the Spirit (tongues) combined with talking to God in the ordinary way, reading and applying the scriptures and beginning my day with the Lord’s prayer.
I now find curious the current interest among Evangelicals in contemplative spirituality of the middle ages, monasticism and roman catholicism. The reformers were familar with it back in the 1500’s, especially Luther. It was a part of the religious culture of the day. They had tried it and found it inadequate as a way to know God. I think we need merely to talk to and trust in the invisible Christ and he will reveal the Father to us and fill us with the Holy Spirit. Once we start trusting in prayer methods and all the contemplative technology and its methods as the way to be Godly and spiritual we are no longing holding on to Christ as our head and source. It’s really no better than getting circumcised to be right with God, actually worse because once someone is circumcised the job is done where as in contemplative spirituality there’s always more spiritual circumcision to be done. It also leads inevitably to spirutal elitism where there is a special caste of spiritual athletes and adepts who have the time and leisure to be spiritual.
I like the fact that you continually point to the one answer to all questions: Jesus.
What a strange interview. ‘MR’ really didn’t understand where (Who!) you were coming from Frank, nor did he seem to be at all interested in your answers. You spoke he good words of life and God can us them to reach some of MR’s readers though.
This was a great interview. I identify with a lot with what you said. I thinks it’s unfortunate that anyone who is outside the institutional church is labeled “emergent”. I know the movement has lost a lot of it’s original authenticity, but it’s become an almost bad word. In a lot of circles it’s another word for heretic.
There are people I personally know that are speaking out a lot against “the third way”, and I can’t really understand why. It has some to do with the convergence of eastern mysticism and christianity merging to make a “third way”, in such things as contemplative prayer. I personally don’t see the big deal. In my reading about contemplative prayer it appears that one is thinking upon the Lord Jesus Christ, I can’t see anything bad about that. It does sound “mystical” but I have learned a lot from “mystics”. A lot of it is drawing comparisons to a woman named Alice Bailey.
Where did this line of thinking come from. It makes perfect sense to me. Has it been used by others in the past that I could reference.
I appreciate that you always bring it back to Jesus. It clears the fog and also dispells fear.
Great interview!