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Frank Viola | Beyond Evangelical
Official Blog of Author & Speaker Frank Viola. Digging below the surface and moving beyond the shallows in today's Christianity.
Why Calvinists Live Like Arminians & Arminians Pray Like Calvinists
Rescripting the Christian Life: Part II
Thank you so much for this post. This divide between Arminianism and Calvinism has really ramped up in recent years. It frustrates me to no end. I’ve spent hours trying to come to terms with the so-called Calvinist side. Both sides have a lot to offer as far as an understanding of who we are and how God interacts with us. I have come to the conclusion that the truth is in the middle. I believe Scripture points to some of both ideologies. From reading Calvin’s messages, I don’t think he would believe in the strict Calvinism taught today. It saddens me that this has caused such division in the Body of CHrist. It saddens me that it is even an issue. It just gives those outside Christianity another opportunity to question the validity of it all. As a Christian, I guess I am part Arminian,part Calvin, and ALL for Christ as Lord and Savior. Instead of arguing about HOW CHrist saves us, let’s just celebrate the fact that He loves us enough to want to save us. And only HE CAN save us..
Thank you for your Biblically accurate post. Satan has used these two “man-made” theological constructs to effectively divide the Body of Christ. Sadly, the sin of pride takes over and people dig into their doctrine of choice so much so that obvious multiple Scripture passages are either flippantly tossed aside, forced into allegory or eisegetically explained.
Wow! Your post articulates exactly how I understand scripture and relate with my heavenly father. Just when you think you’ve got him all figured out…you’ve only just begun.
“Why Calvinists Live Like Arminians & Arminians Pray Like Calvinists”
– too funny!
Thank you, thank you! You have just cleared up a giant mystery for me. Now I feel that I can get on with my life in Christ. I’ve spent too many years wasted on trying to pick one side or the other. No More! Thank you again. Ken McArthur
Just wondering, you haven’t posted your “Why I’m a Calvinist and an Arminian” post yet have you? (I can’t find it if you have. If it’s a future event still, I’ve subscribed to your email list.
Isn’t it amazing how much heat, and how little light this subject generates?
I’ve heard of grandmothers slapping their grandchildren when discussing predestination at family gatherings. Really?
It’s not been published yet. You should subscribe to the blog (not the newsletter only) so you don’t miss a post. https://www.frankviola.org/subscribe
It’s not been published yet. You should subscribe to the blog (not the newsletter only) so you don’t miss a post. https://www.frankviola.org/subscribe
I recently heard NT Wright speak to the issue of the church answering 19th century questions with 15th century answers and we need to move to a place of answering 21st century questions with 1st century answers. I think within the ecumenical church there is great division over questions that the lost and the culture are not asking.
Nicely said, Benjamin!. I’m going to use that!
Terrific article. For the purpose of responding, it doesn’t matter what side of the fence I am on regarding the issue; but appreciated the balanced look at the two sides and how they merge.
This post brought tears to my eyes. For 25 years I followed hard after Christ without ever hearing of any of this debate. My relationship with Him is very solid and secure without ever addressing any of the issues on either side. For the past several months I have been studying both sides of the theological debate(and the Baptists in between), and for the life of me I can’t fit myself neatly into any mold.
I first accepted Christ in a Baptist church (after being raised Catholic!), but God literally put me into a Pentecostal environment for quite a while. Somehow I have been in and out of nearly every Christian church there is looking for a church home. In fact that is how I found you, Frank. I had given up finding anything and started searching for a home fellowship.
I didn’t find a home fellowship in our small city, but I have started to settle into an Evangelical Presbyterian Church locally. However I could never call myself a Calvinist.
Thanks for making things a little more clear. I look forward to your next post on this subject.
“And become as little children” – as little children are, who act among themselves as if all were equal.
I’m a lurker looking for a like button on all these comments. I have nothing to add, but love the conversation. 🙂
Thanks for sharing, Frank. People today need to see Jesus for who he is, without any denominational sunglasses on. then, no matter how much their beliefs get rubbished or discounted with apparent contradictions in scripture, it won’t bother them, because they would have found the best in life: Christ, who is all and in all
PS: This may seem a silly question Frank …. who is Lynyrd Skynyrd ?
My coauthor of this book: http://www.theJesusManifesto.com
Malcolm and Frank, I had to laugh at Lynyrd Skynyrd – clearly an autocorrect! The coauthor’s name is Leonard Sweet.
No. It was deliberate. I’ve been calling him that since 2009. 🙂
It seems that a couple of inches below our gracious loving Christ-like exterior, lurks either a vicious, vindictive, Calvinist or else a stubborn, dismissive, argumentative, Arminianist. It is amazing, as many of the above comments illustrate, just mention the ‘C’ or ‘A’ word and our unity in Jesus is hastily brushed away and we dive for cover behind our defensive positions and its war as usual. May the supremacy and glory of Jesus lift us above these apparent differences as Frank’s post points out; in reality and in everyday life the differences are very minor.
I used to consider myself a ‘tulip’ 🙂 and I could carry on a great debate with the “best of them” – I remember one time when a few men were huddled together discussing their calvinistic views – I approached and joined in and they were amazed that I (a woman) understood what they were talking about – I was let into their “tight” circle immediately- lol
Today I look back and think how crazy that really was – and I’m so thankful that the Lord set me free from all that – I no longer put myself in a box and label myself or anyone else for that matter. I hold to the truth that tells me that I have been crucified with Christ my Lord and I no longer live now but Christ lives in me and through me – and He can have His way with me… HALLELUJAH what a Savior Jesus our Lord!!!!!
“I (Paul) appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.”
Blessings to you all in the name that is above all names – Jesus Christ OUR Lord :):)
Please don’t miss the point Frank is making. Here are his words, “Jesus Christ is LIFE and He is so alive that He will always break out of our constructed theological systems.”
When we stand before the Lord at the Bema seat, we will see this clearly. Today, however, we take our positions, we dig our spurs in the ground, we stiffen our resolve to defend our theological positions. But not there, not at the Bema. I dare say, the words Calvinism and Arminianism will not be uttered in the Lord’s presence. And even more astonishing, they will not be part of the vocabulary of the New Heavens and New Earth.
Frank, excellent post.
After reading the post and I can’t help but notice a similar parallel between the whole ‘modernist/post-modernist’ debate (which is becoming the ‘new’ thing to argue among church factions). Not that post-modernists pray like modernists, etc., but rather the tension that exists between those that believe they can emperically determine ALL spiritual truth and those who believe there is no way to know ANY truth with certainty.
Jesus of course is Truth enfleshed. He can be known! But (as many have said) there is still great mystery in His Person. But rather than jump on one soap-box (carefully craft an air-tight systematic theology) or the other (being light and fluffy about what Jesus may or may not be), I challenge us all to live in ‘the gap’ and celebrate the paradox.
I appreciate that some of you have taken the time to look at the history yourselves. That is all I would ask of anyone. I too have looked at the history from varying sources. My interpretation is that I see law and not grace, vengeance not mercy in Calvin’s actions. It appears that this offends some people.
It is a crying shame that there are some very ugly periods in Christian history, not just at the hands of Catholicism, but also at the hands of Protestantism. The Reformed Church in the German province of Silesia in the 1800s was responsible for persecuting and killing Lutherans.
We can try to defend such actions as being “of context in history”, but surely Jesus bringing the new covenant was supposed to put a stop to such actions. Jesus told the disciples to put down the sword at the time of his arrest. Christianity apart from all things should not be a violent religion. We need to take very seriously the charge of unbelievers who call us hypocrites for adhering to a violent religion.
Eiher we accept that we are guilty of the Crusades and Inquisition and every death at the hands of Catholics… or we also distance ourselves from the Protestant movements in history that lead to death and violence.
I consider myself to be neither a Calvinist or an Arminian. The gospel is both at the same time incredibly simple “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” and incredibly mysterious. Attempts to systematise theology instead of accepting the mystery are what lead us down the path of arrogance of one point being more correct than others.
It is clear that Christ’s church is still far from reformed today.
I like how Michael Card puts it “for let the power of paradox opens our eyes and blinds those who say they can see.” – God’s Own Fool. That’s a great song!!
I am surprised this has not turned into a calvinist arminian shooting match more. I believe we can learn much of God’s truth from both sides. Simply I believe Calvinism is 100% from God’s perspective and Armianism is 100% from man’s perspective. Thus we need to learn from both.
Also I have barely met any consistent “calvinists” that apply their doctrines like calvin did to all of life, and the world. It is a system not just of salvation but everything including government.
I am dubious of any religious movement that can control and run governments or state. To me the sword and the bible are never meant to be wielded together.
I feel that God showed me a long time ago that “it is both and”. Well said. The Bible was not written to argue points, but to make a point of God’s ageless purpose to us. Who cares about proving how long it took to create the world (not saying that in a sense that science is not great at proving God, or for those that think it disproves God). O well, the word for me is both and.
Can’t we all just get along 😉 lol i just want to be found faithful. That’d my theology
Word.
“They will know we are Christians by our…” love, not doctrinal acumen.
I thought they will know we are Christians by our t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.? 🙂
Neither Calvinist, nor Arminian, but Biblicist!!!
Bless you! I have recently been dealing with this very issue. This was a timely word. I have a post I’m working on saved on my wordpress.com entitled “Why I’m a freewill Calvinist.”
Whether Calvinist or Arminian, we are so often saying the same thing and don’t even realize it.
Paradox. We must always remember that we are stuck with a limited vantage point. We cannot fully understand everything of the mysterious wonderful God.
I would ask, though, if the prayers prayed “as a Calvinist” really must be seen in a Calvinistic manner? Is it entirely possible that we are asking God to provide opportunities, convicting a person so that he is left with no choice but to choose or reject. I know that as a youth minister this has been my prayer 1000 times over, and then, when I see a student in that moment, my prayer is simple: Lord let him choose you.
Is it really so simple as to say we are contradictory to our own theological system?
Read the comments. That’s not what the post is saying.
Frank, while I agree that sectarianism is rampant and that we ought never to create idols of the great men of the Church (who themselves would be horrified to know that their names are used in such ways), I have to take issue with the portrayal of Calvinism as weak in the area of personal responsibility. I think this does not give Calvinism (as a system of doctrine) its due, since it most certainly holds God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility in balance, affirming both to be equally true.
Regarding the “Calvin had dozens executed” comment, this is simply not true, regardless of the time in which he lived. The one execution that generally gets held against him is Michael Servetus, who denied the Trinity, and had already been sentenced and was hunted by the Roman Catholic Church. Calvin asked him to stay OUT of Geneva for his own health, and Servetus was finally condemned not by Calvin but by the Counsel of Geneva. When the sentence of slow-burning was passed, Calvin tried (unsuccessfully) to mitigate the more lenient sentence of beheading.
You’re reading into the post. Nothing was said about Calvinism being “weak” in the area of personal responsibility; nor more than it was saying Arminianism is weak in prayer and devotion. The point was that both models excel at different things and they are complimentary. More so, Jesus Christ is LIFE and He is so alive that He will always break out of our constructed theological systems. I stand by that.
Frank,
Thank you for your wise words that all Christian streams should have their center in Christ…that He is everything. I think that both of the theologians that were mentioned are among the countless number that worship at His throne…where all is known in the awesome presence of the Alpha and Omega.
“weapons-grade” theology. Love that. Good reminder that we have to live out our theology by loving God and others more than a point of view.
reading/blogging through Wright’s Authority of Scripture. This post resonates with what he warns about – being tied to Jesus and the Scripture vs. being tied to a tradition. trying to balance that with reality that we need to also be good theologians seeking truth.
thanks
-Mike
This is a great post. I lovingly call myself a Calivi-minian because I see the truth that both have but try to maintain the paradox. Ive been greatly influenced by many in the Neo-Reformed camp and am truly thankful for lithe emphasis on the sovereignty of God, but just can’t go all the way with it.
Good stuff, Frank. I so appreciate your consistent habit of pointing us back to Jesus all the time and with such reality. I am looking forward to the podcat on Colossians. Epic Jesus was amazing.
One thing Paul wrote in that first comment jumped out at me:
Calvin “quite literally had dozens of people executed for differing with his theology.”
This is, quite literally, ridiculous. The only evidence we have of people executed in Geneva were those who had gone outside the bounds of creedal Christianity, and a good many of them were also accused of anarchy/sedition/breaking of OT laws that required capital punishment (the redemptive-historical problems associated with that last category are many, but beyond the scope of my current comment). There were plenty of other folks who differed with Calvin’s theology, and none of them were executed (Lutherans, Arminians, etc.).
But closer to the actual reality, Paul wrote: Calvin was “responsible for executing dozens of people.”
John, the self-described “pretty hardcore Arminian” above, brings in an important point: “I think you are viewing his heresy-hunting through modern eyes and not taking into context the world Calvin lived in.”
While being a man of one’s time never justifies sin, it ought to soften our edges a bit, ought to give us pause before judging so harshly as to condemn those who have gone before us. People in that day were terrified at the thought of people being led to hell because of heresy, of churches fragmented as a result, and of the vengeance of God brought against them in war, pestilence, and famine. The duty of the government, it was believed, was to establish and maintain the orthodox—thus the execution of a heretic was justified. All of our forebears (in Western Christendom) were born into this world.
What will Christians 500 years from now say about American Christians? What are our blind spots those future critics will no doubt point out? Make no mistake, they will do so (and we’ve given them ample cause so to do).
Here’s a brief historical analysis that will provide some corrective to Paul’s statements above:
Calvin gave his consent to execution for heresy, which was, as mentioned above, the status quo for the time. To be sure, many within the Reformed movement began to shake off those shackles, but not Calvin. Nevertheless, it was the Genevan administration (the Council) that had those laws on the books, and they carried out the execution. It was like previous generation’s use of capital punishment for heresy, but unlike what had gone before in that the Council did not answer to the church, nor did the church (Calvin) decree by fiat the execution of any heretics (it had no authority so to do), not least in the case of Servetus, the most popular of these executions today (incidentally, Servetus thought Calvin should’ve been executed for his ‘heresies’).
In short, Calvin had no power beyond excommunication (and even then, being Presbyterian, such decisions were made by the consistory, not Calvin alone).
All this said, what Calvin consented to was evil, through and through. It is to his shame.
Sorry, cross-posted with Jason’s good response above. Thanks for this good post!
I’m a 5 point spurgeonist
I would also add that we honestly engage in evangelism like Armininians. People do choose to follow Jesus I don’t think I was coerced upon conversion. We offer the gift of eternal life to people knowing that it is God who has already been at work in their heart to draw them to Himself. And God does not violate people’s agency even in wooing them. But post conversion, we pray and worship like Calvinists. We are grateful to God for rescuing us through grace. Thanks Frank for the thoughts… something that, as a Reformed believer, I have been mulling over for years.
Okay, I can’t resist and I hope you’ll forgive me, Frank. But everyone is having their say here, and my ‘say’ has changed a bit in the past year. I don’t push it, but I do trust and believe that Father is leading me in His truth. However if not, I expect He’ll forgive me if you will. 😉
There is no paradox here. God is all powerful and nothing He desires to do can be denied Him. (Calvinist) God does the best He can for those He loves, and the best He can do is infinite. (Calvinist) God loves all people. (Arminian) God desires to save all people (Arminian).
The elect are among the barley or are the wheat — not sure — but there is also a grape harvest. So you and Milt and Paul and the Calvinists are right. God HAS chosen a peculiar people in Christ before the foundation of the world. He has given to these the ministry of reconciliation. May we all run the race well and be counted worthy to receive the prize of this high calling in Him!
But choosing the Jews over the nations never implied that the Creator of the world only loved the Jews. And choosing His elect to be part of the one new man, Christ, likewise doesn’t imply that He does not love the not chosen. The older brothers and sisters are in no way better than the younger — they just have more responsibility — to care for their much beloved younger siblings and help them to grow into responsible adult children of our Father.
Maybe not everything happens in this present age. The bible doesn’t tell us that it does, but it does tell us that God says, “All live unto Me,” and that “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living,” and that He “wills that all mankind be saved,” and that He “is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.” Until Augustine (Calvin’s forerunner), it was not unusual for believers to believe that God’s love truly would, given sufficient time (which He certainly has access to), conquer all.
Love you, Brother!
Cindy
Interesting. Have you ‘fleshed out’ this view since your original post? I would be interested in hearing more.
Yes. But it will be in an upcoming book. The first part of it is in “Jesus Manifesto” https://www.frankviola.org/books
Frank,
As I have wrestled extensively in the past over the doctrinal differences in both camps I have come to many of the same conclusions. Having our eyes opened to the different conversational styles works wonders in the direction of tearing down walls of division. The manifold ways that the Lord will reveal himself to us through other believers become exponentially greater when we learn to be united to one another in Christ and submit to the edifying gifts of every brother and sister we are given the pleasure of fellowshipping with.
Knowing who is inside the circle and outside the circle isn’t our task. Trying to keep all our arrows pointed in the same direction is.
I’m a minister in the Christian Reformed Church of North America. We are essentially an American offshoot of the Dutch Reformed Church centered in the Netherlands. The Dutch Reformed Church came about when a group of dissident Dutch Catholics gathered together at the Synod of Emden in 1570. Calvinist thought was brought to the Netherlands by students of John Calvin himself. and so there may be a legitimate claim that the denomination I serve has direct roots to Calvin. So I’m not so much a so-called “New Calvinist” as much as an historical Calvinist, aligning myself with the “neo-Calvinist” movement connected to the leadership and influence of Abraham Kuyper.
That said, I’d like to respond to Paul’s question/challenge regarding Calvin’s role in the deaths of several – in some reports as many as 57 – people during his time in Geneva and at the height of his “power.”
First thing worth pointing out, is that there is very little documented evidence that presents any direct link to John Calvin and his role in these executions.
Second, despite John Calvin having considerable influence over the citizens in Geneva regarding their moral lives, Calvin had very little – actually NO legal – authority over civil matters. Very early on, Geneva maintained a pretty clear separation of church and state structure: the church consistory was granted power over people regarding matters of faith, the city council maintain control over matters of civility. The maximum punishment the church could exercise was excommunication – NOT punishable by death. The city council held the authority to carry out the death penalty. A person sentenced to death had the ability to appeal and the ruling would then go to a council of 200 Genevan citizens. Citizenship is key detail here; Calvin didn’t become a citizen until late in life, AFTER the incident with Servetus, which is the best documented and likely source of all other exaggeration about Calvin’s authority.
Third, Servetus is the only case in which a person was executed in Geneva with a charge of heresy being anywhere in the picture. Servetus was charged with heresy and conspiracy. He believed Calvin was a heretic, spoke openly about his desire to see Calvin put to death for his heresy, and was taking steps to overthrow the Genevan government (believing Calvin was his biggest obstacle). Calvin was called upon as a material witness (expected in such a case). When asked if he believed was Servetus was a heretic, he naturally answered, “Yes.” But that’s as far as Calvin could take it – his authority ran out after that. When Servetus was given the opportunity to rebut Calvin’s statement, he launched into an angry tirade hurling personal insults at Calvin. What is often overlooked and missed is that the city council was actually made up of people who were largely opposed to Calvin regarding his political views. The charge to stage a coup was itself a conviction worthy of death.
All that to say, while involved and his testimony certainly had an effect, Servetus’ fate was in the hands of the city council and the citizens; Calvin was legally barred from inclusion in either of those circles.
Paul asked how Calvin could be considered a “godly man…” The question over whether or not someone is “godly” is a near impossible one to answer. Everyone, every tradition, every theological group branch, has a different idea of what constitutes “godly;” there is no universally accepted definition of all the nuances of “godly.” We can all certainly point to people who are clearly NOT godly, but within the larger Christian faith, that usually devolve into mud-slinging, name-calling, and arrogant tribalism. My preference is to graciously accept the diversity that exists within our faith. Even though I’m a long-time Calvinist, I get uncomfortable with the claims some in our camp will throw out about Arminius being a heretic. I don’t like that word when comparing different theological interpretations. Arminius still upheld Jesus as Christ, the trinity, the necessity of the cross for salvation…all the foundational tenets of Christianity.
We hold to a generous and forgiving faith with a lot of room under the tent. I for one don’t think that a person’s convictions about salvation have any bearing on their salvation (assuming salvation by faith alone in Jesus alone is at the core). Whether God first chose or whether he chose on the basis of foreseen faith really isn’t all that important to me. I just want to know that a person has committed their entire life to Jesus of Nazareth as their Lord and Savior. Virtually everything beyond that is just details that shape the way we live out our faith…
Sorry for the length, but I hope that’s helpful.
Thanks so much, Jason. Btw/ how did you find this post? I suspect you’re not a regular reader, unless you’re one of the many lurkers here.
Not a regular reader. But we’re connected on FB, so I saw the link you posted there 🙂
Appreciate your voice. Don’t be a stranger. You may find some of these interesting enough to weigh-in on: https://www.frankviola.org/popular
As a Jesusist I am pretty staunchly entrenched in Jesusism.
Exactly…thank you…I grew up Independent,Fundamental, Premillenial (spelling?)Baptist…it was on our church sign posted by the road LOL…then in my high school years came to know the name “Calvin” and the dogmatic stance of our pastor lead to our family leaving…but I’ve never even heard of Arminian LOL…why are we labeling and categorizing ourselves under the names of MEN…that is exactly the problem…because there is no man named “Calvarmian” so just put it all aside and get under the heading of our Savior…you will not go wrong!!!
“Notwithstanding, every Calvinist I’ve ever met takes responsibility for their choices just like Arminians do. (E.g., I’ve never met a Calvinist who said, “It doesn’t matter what I do because God’s will is going to get done regardless.”)”
So in terms of observing the behavior of a Calvinist regarding their choices and their taking responsibility for their actions, if they are consistent with their belief, then they should see their free choices in the context of God’s decree. I think most Calvinists would deny libertarian free will. I don’t think they would see the human will as if it were a puppet on a string. That’s overly simplistic IMO.
I don’t think Calvinism teaches the mindset of: “It doesn’t matter what I do because God’s will is going to get done regardless”. That’s my understanding anyway.
No one said it was “inconsistent.” Neither is the way most Arminians pray. Never said Calvinism teaches that mindset, but from the doctrine, one can easily derive that. That’s the point: Both live and pray the same despite what’s on paper regarding the huge divide between their beliefs on God’s will, human will, and sovereignty. And … spiritual truth is paradoxical, so both system are MODELS for different things. Some are better than others depending on what one is looking at. Hope that helps.
Did I break one of your rules of comments? I had posted a link to another blog on free will but it looks like it was removed. I read the rules carefully and I didn’t see anything against posting links to other blogs that might help clarify a point.
I am not the one who moderates comments, but links in comments are mentioned in the commenting guidelines: https://www.frankviola.org/rules – see #1.
I am a Christian. I was raised reformed. And have long since smashed the idols that my parents have raised up f
Higher… than the Word itself. In the same I reverence God and do not belittle His abilities in anyway, shape or form like the arminians have the tendency of doing….( at least I try not too). By faith like Jacob I rest on my staff. Realizing its not by my own strength, yet understand I have legs to run the race set out for me. There are days that I in this walk that I HAVE to depend on election and realize that predestinatiin is a praise worthy act of love by God. The Father predestined the crushing of His own Son…. I could only beg the father and Hope for the predestination of my own life to unfold with such noble glorifying purpose. Also there are days that I feel so confident in my election….I lose the fear of God, and verses by the Holy Spirits leading rail my like wave tool to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.
Brother and sisters….. I will state this as fact. Both these sides will come together like a hot and cold front one day when we stand before God and it will create a miraclous and glorifying tornado that will cause us to fall on our faces with eternal awe and worship to the slain lamb of God!!
I’m an arminian who used to be a calvinist. I take issue that you say I belittle God’s ability. I don’t and do not know any arminian who does. Your comment isn’t really on the subject of what this post is saying. I think Frank is right in his analysis and this helps to heal the breach. Accusing others of things they don’t believe doesn’t heal but it divides.
If you are solely calvinist…. You are wrong. If you are solely arminian…. You are wrong. To be one without the other would be like being a a flower yet having petals with no stem or a stem with no flower….. Yes the stem comes first just like predestination and election but to be fruitful and flower there comes a doing.
I love this statement….. The big fish MUST have been arminian…. Because in chapter 2 when the fish hears Job state salvation cones from the Lord……. The fish spewd Jonah out of His mouth. 🙂
1. I love this post. I had a similar conversation last Sunday at brunch with my church family, although we never drew delineation between Calvinism and Arminianism. We were basically chatting about the paradox between free will and God drawing us to Himself and how both aspects play into the discipleship/”salvation” process. In the end, we concluded that it’s not either or, but and. I think a similar argument can be used with Calvinism/Arminianism. The beauty of it is in the paradox and Jesus himself was a paradox to those who follow Him, in ever so many ways. But the paradox doesn’t negate the two sides, rather is couples them as part of God’s redemptive plan. I’ve struggled for so long to define myself in terms of Arminianism and Calvinism (having grown up VERY Arminian and yet find myself theologically and biblically more Calvinistic), but in the last six months or so I’ve come to embrace the paradox and allow it to grow me in my faith rather than tear me apart in confusion.
2. As for the thread of the historical man Calvin and his actions versus his theological contributions: In my opinion, there are many actions throughout church history that could easily negate the mission of the church (eg Crusades, extremists that bomb abortion clinics, the Spanish Inquisition, the Catholic vs Protestant battles in Ireland, most of the things Pat Robertson says on national television, etc) but those things happened, regardless of how I feel about them. And out of those many, many flawed [including Peter, Paul (and Mary?), Thomas, etc] God still worked out His will. Yes, Calvin did some things that Calvinists (and the universal church) aren’t very proud of, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t use him just the same as He does you and me. Calvin was human and flawed; it’s unfair to place him on a pedestal because of those things. The beauty of the Cross is that our finite, flawed humanity is made perfect in Christ, but even in that justification, we still sin. Calvin was not a perfect man, and I am not a perfect woman. No one who posts here is perfect, not even Frank, but God still uses us. To focus on Calvin’s flaws is to ignore the Gospel; to intentionally throw him under the bus (especially when he is incapable of defending his actions, since he’s dead and all) while missing the crux of the post is to show a misunderstanding of theological conversation and the mission it should have. It makes me sad that it was so quickly jumped to, because I’m willing to bet that Paul (poster) isn’t perfect and therefore should be understanding that he is casting stones on a sinner who is desperately in need of Christ just as much as the rest of us.
I think those are all my thoughts.
Great points. Yes, Paul had flaws also as all of us do. David was a murderer and more, and Paul says in Acts that “he was a man after God’s own heart.” That being his memory of him. Moses was also a murderer, yet he was God’s prophet and a type of Jesus, “the meekest man in all the land.” Wesley, Luther, pick your favorite servant, all made mistakes as every servant of God does. Peter is the summary witness that someone can be mightily used of God even after betraying the Lord Himself (which some regard as the greatest of all sins, if such a thing exists). Calvin is no exception, although as Michael pointed out, he may not be guilty of everything that some charge him with. Contrary to the opinions of some, I wasn’t there myself so cannot say. 😉
Nice post, Frank. While Christ can be fully known, he can not be known fully. A man can know Christ to the fullest extent that is humanly possible, and yet still not know Christ in His fullness. Our capacity falls short, our systems constructed by finite minds attempting to wrap themselves around infinite existence. And, whether we admit it or not, devoted Christians are way more alike than we would want to admit.
Thanks for stirring the pot!
Oh, and Paul, King David had Uriah killed because his wife was hot and pregnant. Research the life of David. You won’t like what you find. (1 Chron. 28:3…)
Good point…God purposely gives us examples of God-fearing, God-following individuals whom as young children we hold in highest esteem because they are in the Bible and are the center of Sunday School lessons and Vacation Bible School themes…and gradually we find…they are all flawed…as we are…and we realize it really IS all about GOD and what He brings to us through Jesus Christ 🙂
It’s probably not necessary to get sarcastic with me. As you could guess I have read the life of David. He was confronted by Nathan and then repented. That is key to his story. Please do not think me to be ignorant on these issues, nor the life of Calvin. I’m actually a little surprised to see how much people have wanted to belittle me for having a controversial opinion. Kind of strange and unloving behaviour really. Leaves me feeling quite disappointed and wondering how we can ever honestly answer unbelievers if we won’t treat each other with respect.
Any doctrine that is TRUTH is GOD’s doctrine…not Calvin’s or anyone else’s…I’ve long ago shed any label other than that of Jesus Christ. Respecting teachers and leaders is a great thing, but SO any people get caught up in adoring their pastor, or even an author, that they become man-lead and not Christ-lead. Frank you are exactly correct…humans will always, eventually screw up the TRUTH somewhere along the line, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot…and it’s a serious thing to interject our own “idea”…relax and surrender to the TRUTH and nothing will have to be bent, forced, or pushed into it’s proper place…just like when putting a jigsaw puzzle together…if the piece doesn’t fit…set it aside until the proper place is revealed…
Frank,
You asked that someone come and answer Paul, so I’ll do so briefly, as I’m on my way to work.
The answer is that Paul needs to read some church history that’s written by someone without an agenda.
Calvin did not have dozens of people executed in Geneva.
Calvin didn’t have the authority to do so if he had desired to.
He wasn’t even made a citizen of Geneva until about five years before his death.
The mythology of the iron fisted Calvin perpetrating vengeance against all he considered his enemies is mostly that…mythology.
Calvin lived in a completely different age with completely different views of church and state than we embrace now and his actions need to be understood in the context of his times.
His writings, (especially the Institutes and his commentaries) are timeless and valuable to this day, despite his faults and the fact that he was a product of the 16th century political and ecclesiastical age.
I recommend on the recent bios of Calvin by Bruce Gordon of Yale or Herman Seiderhuis for a full picture of Calvin the man and his time in Geneva.
But honestly, the problem goes even deeper than Calvinism / Arminianism. Even the direct words and sayings of Jesus, as quoted in scripture, can be very difficult and are certainly open to widely varying interpretations. So saying “follow Jesus” doesn’t really get you out of the problem either. At least if what you mean is to concentrate on the teachings and sayings of Jesus as recorded in the NT and hold everything else up to that light. That’s all well and good but, as I said, even the teachings and sayings of Jesus are difficult (maybe primarily because of the temporal, language and cultural divides).
Frank, I don’t think you do this, and I think you teach as well as anyone on this subject, but it does frustrate me sometimes when people throw up their hands in response to doctrinal and interpretive confusion and say “let’s just follow Jesus”. Well that’s great, but if all that means is following what we interpret the Scriptures to say about Jesus, and what they record Him saying, we’ve perhaps narrowed the scope of the confusion, but have certainly not escaped it.
I love the focus in Jesus, I love the emphasis on viewing and interpreting everything (including the OT) through the lens of Jesus. It’s a much needed correction. I just know that in my experience there are at least two Jesus’s. There’s the one who looks at me in sorrow and says “depart from me, I never knew you” and there’s the one who leaves the 99 and seeks me out, and doesn’t stop seeking me out, until he finds me and carries me back to the sheepfold. Those are two VERY different (even contradictory) Jesus’s. But those are both unavoidable Jesus’s if you’re simply “reading” the Bible.
Dan: I think you’re reading into the post. I don’t know anyone who says “forget all else just follow Jesus” without explaining what that means exactly. “Jesus Manifesto” answers that very question in over 200 pages. As does “From Eternity to Here.” Because there’s so much clutter surrounding the issue, it takes both deconstruction and positive unpacking. This is a blog post, not a book. 🙂
Frank: thanks once again for responding to my comments. I know my comments on blog posts are usually exercises in missing the point. Which is why I don’t normally comment. I do actually get the point of the blog post, and heartily agree with it. I suppose I’m just expressing my personal frustration at my inability to reconcile even the most fundamental thing of all, which is the attitude of Jesus towards me. Here’s the sick way my mind works:
Jesus loves me so much that he humbled himself to become a man and went all the way to the cross, death and beyond in order to save/rescue/atone for me. He will seek me like a good shepherd and not give up until he finds and rescues me. But by golly don’t think for a second he won’t weed me out, throw me into outer darkness or deny even knowing me if I don’t get it right. You know the parables and teachings of Jesus I’m referring to.
I am all too painfully and experientially aware of the fact that if Jesus doesn’t save me I am well and truly screwed. And the Bible tells me that it’s a free gift (awesome!). But the Bible also tells me that if I don’t cooperate enough, do my part enough, become enough of a disciple, feed the widows and orphans enough, invest my masters funds wisely enough, bear good fruit (how much good fruit, have I borne enough, will I bear enough?) and so on then, free gift of grace not withstanding, I’m out on my ear. ARGH!
I know you’ve addressed these very things, and when I read/listen to what you say it is so comforting and makes so much sense. But within a few days I’m back to dealing with this Multiple Personality Disorder God.
Dan G, my heart and my ears hear your angst…and I too have struggled with the same paradox as most believers do. The bottom line is none of us hit the mark in this life…that’s the point of salvation…and he does seek us out, find us, hold us eternally…those that he casts out never correctly responded to Him to begin with and are unwittingly confident in their own works and self-righteousness. God sees the heart and the intent of each individual…and the fact that you are even convicted on these points shows that you are seeking the TRUTH of Him and relationship. We long to please Him but fear we can’t…the point is that you are trying to please HIM, not other people and not even your own ego is what makes all the difference…keep on!
My first several months as a believer were only me, the Bible and, as I later realized, the presence of the Holy Spirit. In that I mean that I was learning from Him. Once I did begin attending a local assembly and talking with other believers did I realize the things I was learning were true. Andrea Crouch had a song titled “Take Me Back” to the place where I first believed. Those were incredible times when His Spirit was guiding me into all truth. I seek that again and so it IS all about following Jesus and learning from Him. That is also realized by fellowship with others and discerning Christ in them as a part of learning from Him.
How do we box that which is unboxable! How do we declare that we fully know this magnificent King we serve? I am satisfied saying I am just in love with Him because He first loved me and taught me what love really is…
I am on a life journey to search out this King I serve with a willing and thankful heart. Each little bit I get blows my mind. It should folks! He is, as Graham Cooke says, “Brilliant”! We don’t even have language to describe how unsearchable He is, so how could we “define” Him!
Jesus will you continue to reveal just how magnificent You are to Your People, Your Bride!
This is a great post and appreciate you writing it Frank. I have found the beginning of this article to be very true. I have just left the Reformed church, PCA and though there many good things I enjoyed there, there are also many things that I feel are wrong but that’s okay I just keep praying for them and I especially pray for myself. To seek God’s ways and reflect of my time there, Lord what would you have me learn from that experience. I say all of this to show that the statement….
“I’ve met some Christians who promoted the idea (though not in these exact words) that “unless you receive John Calvin into your heart, you cannot be saved.”
While others preached the gospel of “unless you receive John Wesley into your heart, you cannot be saved.”
to be very true in my experience at the PCA church. I do agree that they were great men but also with some pretty great faults, like I have had many great faults! I am also very grateful for the Love of Christ that covers a multitude of sin!
“Life will find a way.” I love that quote! We were meant to live by Christ’s life, not a religious system. I’ve observed that the life of Christ has a pattern, but not a system. The difference is very tough to grasp sometimes, especially when being logical and rational is made so important. But the pattern is shown in Christ’s incarnation: humility, sacrifice, and suffering for the sake of loving others. The outworking of these things in Jesus’ own life and through the ekklesia is often not logical to the human mind, but is perceived by the Spirit. When I let go of system thinking, I was able to be more open to the Spirit working and leading and let Jesus be Jesus.
Thank you for the continuing reminders and examples of living by Christ’s life.
I’m a Calvinist and this is an excellent post. Thanks for writing it!
Brother,
Good post. However, there is no (Calvinistic) doctrine that says “we are not responsible for our actions,” so I’m not quite sure why you inferred that above.
I think you also should have mentioned that it’s not always a clean-cut 5 point TULIP belief (Calvinism) vs. 5 point denial (Armenianism). Many believe most of TULIP but deny one or two points.
I also don’t believe that there are any true logical paradoxes in the perfect Truth of Christ. However, it can definitely seem that way to the more foolish of us (ie. me). Like predestination of all things (Eph 1) vs. “you have not because you ask not” (Jam 4:2). To me and many others, this is a deep and mysterious thing that we cannot comprehend. But I don’t think it’s a logical flaw.
As a reformed preacher once said, “Calvinism is not the issue!” And as another Calvinist has said, “Jesus was not a Calvinist.”
As my pastor, who denies some of TULIP said, “It doesn’t matter if I have [doctrinal] differences with a brother; we have Christ in common!”
God bless you.
You’re missing the point. Calvinists believe that God foreordains what happens before it happens and God saves only those He has elected. The point is that *practically* when it comes to living and making choices, there’s no difference between all the 5-point Calvinists I’ve ever met and all the hard-core Arminians I’ve ever met. So while their views look different on paper, all the Calvinists I’ve known make choices like Arminians and all the Arminians I’ve known pray like Calvinists. As I’ve said, there are always exceptions, but I’ve not come across one in my experience anyway.
Frank,
Interesting post for sure and I believe a correct one. My comment here is in reference to your statement above, “The point is that *practically* when it comes to living and making choices, there’s no difference between all the 5-point Calvinists I’ve ever met and all the hard-core Arminians I’ve ever met.”
To me this is a major flaw in calvinism itself; soteriologically speaking theirs is a monergistic system but both before God is certainly anything BUT monergistic and then afterwards the relationship is synergistic. You are correct when it comes to living and making choices 5-pt calvinists are just like arminians…
The critical aspect of calvinism even to the calvinist is largely centered on conversion and then it fans out from there!
Francis Schaeffer once commented to the effect on whether we could actually live according to our doctrines or whether we actually live according to the way things really are. We all live in reality despite our “systematic theologys”. This article expresses that very clearly. I remembered you saying that in “The Jesus Manifesto”.
Another great post!
Hey there… good post, I am looking forward to the “Why I Am a Calvinist and an Arminian”…
BTW… I don’t think Lynyrd Skynyrd wrote Jesus Manifesto with you…. did you mean Leonard Sweet? Darned autocorrect 🙂
Deliberate. That’s what I call him. 🙂
My friends and I have been following the New Reformed teachers for awhile now and this article blew me away! I want to learn more so I ordered your Jesus Manifesto book. Thanks for this. I’m going to subscribe to the podcast too.
Bill,
Ok, unless Frank responds to me, I will say no more. Please give me the benefit of the doubt, do some research on the life of John Calvin, you will not like what you find…. I will let history speak for itself.
I think your point is a very good one Frank, I am not disagreeing with you either. Thanks for wanting to bring both sides together, I appreciate that. That is in itself very gracious. I too agree with you that there should not be a division here.
By the way Frank, Peter repented for his actions. I am not disagreeing with you on that point.
I just find it amazing that we can have a debate about this topic in the first place when the man who put the doctrine forward was responsible for executing dozens of people. Why do we ignore history? Please do me the favour of giving me the benefit of the doubt. I am not nit picking at all, I am asking for an honest appraisal of historical facts. (I don’t consider murder for doctrinal differences to be a “teensy point”.)
I am not sure Frank why the only two times I have bothered to comment on your blog you have dismissed my comments out of hand because I am not buttering up to you? Please have a bit more good faith than that.
God Bless you bro.
Dude, chill. I have to agree with Jeff, the whole point of the post wasn’t what a great person Calvin or Wesley were. Frank just honored their contribution by saying they were great servants of the Lord, and most historians agree with that. The point of the post was about how Calvinists and Arminians are more alike than most people think. Frank answered your question, man. Jesus said anger is the same as murder on the sermon on the mount, so let’s be careful about judging.
Frank, the point about Jesus being a paradox was powerful. This puts a lot of things in perspective for me. We do come to the bible with western logical glasses and that’s where a lot of the problem lies. Great post to start the morning off with.
Well, I’m a pretty hardcore Arminian, and I generally think doctrines Calvin promoted were the most pernicious in Protestantism. That said, I think you are viewing his heresy-hunting through modern eyes and not taking into context the world Calvin lived in. In his world, this was the way things were done. I’m a firm believer that there are only so many systems against which any one man can strive against at a time, and to say that X did not do enough against the evil of Y can be unfair.
Consider the slavery issue. Many “great” men of God owned slaves. Thankfully, that is no longer the case, and we owe a great debt of gratitude to those who brought an end to that dehumanizing system. But it’s difficult to be overly critical of those who did not stand against it, because that was only world they had ever known. It was simply “How Things Are.” Is that frustrating? Yes! But we are not finished products. Kingdom building is a process. And understanding this can be key to keeping sane as we fight the evils of today. As Dr. King said so eloquently: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”
Brilliant post, Frank, and so needed today in the wake of people being hard lined Calvinists or Arminians and all the bickering between them.
I do find it curious that the first comment is by someone who seemed to ignore the main point of the post and nit-picked on one teensy point. Amazing.
Thanks Jeff. Regarding your other observation, I thought the same exact thing.
Frank,
I have to be quite honest with you and ask how can Calvin be considered a godly man when he quite literally had dozens of people executed for differing with his theology in Geneva? He also had many prosecuted for not attending Sunday morning church services.
I’ll let the Calvinists who read your comment respond to you. But I’ll just make one point: Every Christian has flaws and has made mistakes. Peter committed what many regard to be the greatest sin of all: Betrayal of the Lord Jesus after being hand-picked to be a disciple and living with the Lord Jesus for 3 years. I don’t hold that against Peter and neither did Jesus. Peter ended up being regarded as the greatest apostle. But for grace . . .
But that was before Peters conversion. I see the Blood of Christ as cleansing us to the point of no return. We will fall a 1000 times, but the Blood is there to pick us back up to the point to where ” Once WAS lost, but NOW am found”. He has made provisions for our weaknesses and the reality that He is truely within us, lies in our coming unto His fullness, if that NEVER happens, it’s pretty obvious, we’ turned back far short of His Glory, of which Christ died and rose to bring us unto!
I think this is wrong and takes away from the power of Peter’s story. Peter was a follower of Jesus. Period. He was converted when he decided to leave his fishing and follow the Lod. Even after he received the Holy Spirit he sinned, read Galatians 2 where Paul had to rebuke him. Peter is an object lesson for all of us. All of us who follow the Savior have flaws and have screwed up but God still forgives and uses us. I’m glad Peter is in the bible and that he was known as the chief apostle.
Paul rebuked him to the face but that don’t mean it was right. He said Peter was being as a Jew while around Jews and a gentile while being around gentiles. Paul later said of himself, to the Jew he became as a Jew, a gentile as a gentile, etc…
Good point Michael. In response to Tommy, Paul showed Peter was acting in “hypocrisy” in Galatians 2. Peter did wrong. I agree with Tommy that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sins. All sins whenever we commit them. I too am glad for Peter!