In Finding Organic Church, I explore how Paul deliberately mentored, coached, and apprenticed his younger coworkers in Ephesus for a period of three years. Essentially, Paul repeated what Jesus did with the Twelve in Galilee in what A. B. Bruce called “the training of the Twelve.”
The main difference is that Paul trained eight people instead of twelve.
Interestingly, during the time that Paul trained these eight coworkers to carry on his work, he paid for their needs. Rather than taking money from them – to pay for their training or “internship” – he supported them during those years of spiritual apprenticeship.
Paul makes this plain in his discourse to the Ephesian elders:
“I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” (Acts 20:33-35).
Incidentally, that’s the context of the famous text, “It is better to give than to receive.”
With that in mind, I received this email from someone this week. A Christian sister in her 30s. The email raises some important, piercing questions. Take a look.
Why is it that so many churches and organizations have “internship” programs for young adults, and in almost every single case, the young adult has to raise money for these usually very expensive programs?
Oftentimes, if one wants to “really get involved” in the inner workings of a group, or have any opportunities for leadership, one has to cough up anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 for “leadership training” in a “school” or “internship program” with their organization.
It seems that organizations have found these internship programs both a good way to raise up new leaders, but also a great way to finance the already existing leaders with fees from the new interns, and I don’t see ANYONE out on the blogosphere questioning what’s going on here.
Is it right that in the body of Christ, in order to be trained and to come into meaningful chances and opportunities of leadership within any organization, one has to pay thousands of dollars for that training – and go around begging money from their brothers and sisters for that?
I can understand people being asked to raise money when they are SENT somewhere, when the money is necessary to fulfilling the mission they are being sent on, but someone now money has become a prerequisite to being allowed on the inside track of any up and coming ministry, from 24/7 (for instance, to be on the inside track with them one should go to their 5 month training program for roughly $8,000, not counting personal expenses) to YWAM to many large churches to IHOP and on and on.
I personally would really love to give myself wholly to serving and meaningful exchange within a body of believers and it is freaky and frustrating to find that (a) I’m expected to go through a very basic and expensive training program to learn the basics of Christianity when I’ve been a believer for 25 years already, and (b) it would cost me thousands and thousands of dollars to jump through those hoops.
The gatekeepers are not being kind. Someone in the blogosphere needs to ask about the sustainability of these programs and the assumptions that are being made in the structure of these things.
What do you think about this sister’s observations and feelings . . . are they valid? What do you think of Paul’s way of training people for ministry, by contrast? If you are someone who is called to the Lord’s work, how do you personally go about finding a mentor or someone to train you . . . what’s your process or has such idea never occurred to you?
I’d especially like to hear from those of you who are in your 20s and 30s. Bring your friends over to the blog and have them weigh-in to the question also. Let’s see what we can discover. I’ll share my own opinion later this week in the comments.
On Spiritual Pride
A Pandora’s Box this is! I hardly know where to begin. At my home church, everyone who was appointed youth pastor was a graduate of some kind of Christian university or seminary. One in particular had $50,000 of student loan debt. The going assumption was, if you weren’t planning to attend a Christian college, God hadn’t called you to church ministry–a stance I deeply resented.
To add insult to misery, our youth program was severely underfunded. Teens who wanted to go on our seasonal trips to camps and conventions had to shell out $80 or more just to cover lodging. Some of these kids came from poor, broken homes and often only went because some kind church member or step-dad ponied up the dough. Occasionally, the youth pastor would ask teens to bring offerings to service, often turning it into a contest (boys vs. girls or school vs. school) to see who could bring the most.
Just before the last senior pastor resigned, I got to see a copy of the church budget. For that fiscal year, the youth program received about $1,200 in operating funds. However, the senior pastor’s entertainment budget, to treat visiting pastors and missionaries–was a whopping $5,000. I feel sick just thinking about it.
I hope this hasn’t been covered yet. Read most but not all comments. Just glad to see the discussion. First of all having to talk about money in this way should be an indicator that something is wrong. Secondly, we are supposed to be a family and I believe that the first century family got it because they treated each other this way, the good the bad and the ugly. I might add that Henry Ford had not been born yet (he was credited with the assembly line idea even though it wasn’t his to idea to begin with) and the early believers didn’t know that you could make a uniform mold and pop out a mature christian or professional minister or at least a good chrisian every semester (sarcasm). Things were said like “love one another”, “the older train the younger” and “bear one another’s burdens”. I don’t think we can improve on the program that the early believers left us. It may not be as glamorous or notible. Again, where did we get the ideas to do this. Find the source and you will find the problem. I spent the money and though I do not totally regret it, it didn’t do what the time around Grandma’s kitchen table did. I got to see a real live example/illustration of what loving Jesus looked like and I had to sit there and eat all of that good food too. Go figure. Egos and ambition have birthed some nasty children.
I am have been a Mennonite Brethren lead pastor for years. Three as a lead pastor and 13 as a youth pastor.
We pay or interns, not the other way around. While it might now be a lot we pay their millage, coffee money and give them a small resource and book budge and on top of that we give them $600 a month.
That is how I started 17 years ago
This stream of comments reminds me of our time in China 2001 – 2004. There was a contingent of Christian Americans in China under the guise of being English teachers at the local universities. In actuality they were having their home churches provide ~$20K/year to a US based organization so they could be missionaries. This seemed like a form of Christian tourism. However, the non-American Christian missionaries in China were fully supporting themselves working for the local universities as English teachers. The pay was sufficient to support living in a 2 bedroom apartment, with sufficient extra to meet all their needs as well as travel during vacations. I also was a tent maker, fully self sufficient with God’s provisions. Makes you wonder.
I agree with this article. I’m 37 and have been held back by severe health problems most of my life. But God has promised me healing and I feel a ministry call on my life. The problem is I have no formal education so I am qualified to only work retail and fast food. Secondly, I have no money, so I can’t afford ministry school. Thirdly, having been a Christian 30 years and being extensively self educated on matters of faith and doctrine, I don’t need elementary training. Paying thousands to learn what I know sounds frustrating at best. I know people would assume me unteachable, but that’s not it. I’m just way past beginner.
One thing I’ve noticed is that churches want to train the young for leadership, not the older, more mature people. Those over 30 are ignored. One church I was in explained why (in an unfiltered, behind the scenes conversation). It’s because youth are malleable. They are too young (18-22 years old was the age being described) to have formed any strong convictions and will conform without question. The problem is that they are also too young to know how young they are. Leaders by definition should be ahead, pointing and showing the way. But my experience is that leaders are, sadly, too often people with titles that give them the right to be condescending. It’s all wrong.
I have no answers other than God is bigger and He places us where He wants and opens the doors for us He wants us to walk through! That gives me comfort!
I promised I’d weigh-in to this conversation. I have limited time so here it is in a nutshell.
1. In “Finding Organic Church,” there’s a whole discussion on how youthful enthusiasm is used to build movements, and very often, the young people who were running on the fumes of youthful enthusiasm burn out eventually. And it’s not a pretty sight. I’ve met many such people over the years.
2. I’ve outlined how Jesus and Paul trained people for ministry in detail in “Finding Organic Church” and I explore the roots of the modern method in “Pagan Christianity.” I stand by both and wish every person who feels called of God to plant churches — in particular — who is in their 20s and 30s would read these two books. “Finding Organic Church” especially.
3. If someone is looking for a mentor or someone to train them, find someone who is older than you are whom you resonate with on a spiritual level, who has more experience in the Lord than you, and who you feel can teach you the deeper things of Jesus Christ and how to know Him. Then simply ask them. It’s a good idea also to make sure the person has coworkers who are peers (not just understudies, but peers who are in his or her life).
There’s an excellent chance that these people won’t be trying to recruit you nor have a program that charges a fee over/above living expenses.
In short, people have to do what they feel is best for them. And after watching the passing parade for many years now, that’s what they’re gonna do anyway. 🙂
I think we’re just culturally used to paying for a year of bible school/travelling/whatever else during gap years, so it doesn’t seem strange. Especially if you want to provide any kind of formal education, as well as food and housing, that costs money -and I know that the people in YWAM (the people I’m thinking of when I read this post) have a hard time getting by financially as it is. So paying your own way is simply the reality.
What I think is stranger is the way the Discipleship Training thingy (in the case of YWAM)is indeed a required hoop to jump through. I guess they just want to make sure that everyone is at the same level. I also know that a lot of my late teenage/early 20s friends have really benefited from and enjoyed doing a DTS. But it should really be optional. Two of my friends (a couple) had to do a DTS to be allowed to keep on working in the 24/7 prayer thing at YWAM where I live, which I thought was somewhat silly, as they had already been doing this for a year – and presumably, had proven themselves already. Bureaucracy ~_~`
The funniest thing I think is that most of the young christians I know who are epicing out enough to want to do a DTS don’t actually need much training anyway, they just need to be allowed to be a full member of the church, and run and live next to people of all ages.
I take issue with this sort of internship program on a couple of levels. First, I see no example of such a pattern in the scriptures. The Ephesian model that you mentioned, Frank, seems much more appropriate, or at least a part-time tent making job while in such a school. This manner of training more closely parallels attending a trade school or some sort of college than it does anything biblical.
As a 30-something who has worked in parachurch ministry, I think larger questions need to be raised about the traditional support-raising system. Training was provided for me, but instead of paying for a school it was lumped in with the rest of my support. My reading of the NT has not shown one instance where Jesus, Paul, or any other worker asked for their own support/funding. When Paul was supported, he devoted himself to preaching, teaching, etc.; when he wasn’t supported, he worked. He would ask one church to support another, but never did he make the request for himself. George Muller is a modern example of this.
Third, Paul told the Corinthians that he made a point to present the gospel to them free of charge. (1 Cor 9) He chose not to take full advantage of his rights in the gospel so that the message would not be corrupted. If this is the case with a new church, why should it be different when training others for ministry? What does this communicate to young leaders about Christ? Requiring significant financial investment has to have some impact on the purity of what is taught.
PS – what HOP are you at (free housing and mentoring?) 🙂
Wow, this definately hit a chord with me.
1) As a leader of a ministry, I do not get paid, nor raise support, and have just felt like it wasn’t right or time to do so. It hits a chord in me when I hear pastors say (asking for tithes)” a man is worhty of his wages’..as I get no wages..but am I still worthy? I wonder how many of these leaders would still pastor if they didnt’ get a wage.
2) Hmmm..I’d LOVE to pay a staff/intern if I had the resource to do so. I believe it should be that way. ALthough I have read there is an abuse of interns in the ‘marketplace arena as well as the church’.
2) Get this..we offered classes/discipelship classes, for free, then I decided to charge ‘$15’ a class..help pay bills for use of facility.and guess what,.two of the students who first said they were coming, decided to go to a ‘more popular school of ministry and pay thousands of dollars…I don’t get that. WE offer the same material content.
3) My son did go to a discipleship school, and actually I knew it was for his ‘life experience’ more so than what he learned..as he’d call me every week and told me most of it was stuff he had already learned at home..but I feel it was still worth the experience of him going away.IT was a ministry school, not an internship..so not close relationship with leaders.My daugher is now at a discipleship/missions and she raised her own money for that. Basically I feel the same way..she is paying for the life experience.
4) Even though I’ve offered free housing and mentoring..if an ‘intern’ would come help out at our HOP..I’ve had no takers. Seems like there is more of a desire to spend the thousands..
I haven’t read all the comments..but I think this is a great discussion. Thanks
I think kids pay the thousands not to “get training” but to get social opportunities. A big ministry offers that.
Alex – I say this kindly enough – $1000 is almost nothing to raise among a few friends. But $8000 is a whole different ballgame. Because once you’ve exhausted the first $1000 of donations from people in your immediate circle, people who are more than happy to even see a need before you ask and just start giving to you out of the relationship they have with you…. now you have to go outside your immediate circle – calling up people you haven’t talked to in years and years and pretending to be calling them out of some sort of nostalgia, wanting a renewed relationship with them, to see if they have any interest in giving you money. It’s absolutely as you say, “the arm of the flesh.” And yet it is called “trusting God” because when you’re being that socially inappropriate, you have to rely on God to get you through the embarrassment of it all. What I really worry about is the people who successfully manage to stop feeling embarrassed at using people not for relationships but for their own social and financial collateral “for the Kingdom” and start feeling like they are doing them a favor giving them an ‘opportunity’ to be used.
I think one of the issues here is not just that these programs are so expensive, but that they are a ‘rite of passage.’ In other words, only people who attend the programs are given respect and allowed into the ranks of leadership.
What really becomes screwy is when you’ve gone through all this in one church, only to find years and years later that that church is really toxic, or maybe you’ve had to move to a new location, or maybe your church closed its doors for some reason – and suddenly you find yourself having to join a new church somewhere else. And you’re at the bottom of the rung again, so to speak – even though you went through the training and internship in one place, the new place you are in doesn’t necessarily recognize the training you got at the last place as being worth anything. You need to be trained AGAIN with the new church’s unique DNA. A few more thousand dollars, please.
Maybe I’m too cynical. I suppose it’s not ALWAYS like this.
When did begging become a noble calling? We are so used to the idea of fund raising for everything that no one thinks twice about it. Sanctified begging has become a substitute for trusting the leading of the Spirit. In my early Christian walk I felt strongly that I should go to Christ for the Nations, who required a $1,000 down payment on scholarship to enroll. I didn’t ask anyone for the money, even though I was dirt poor at the time. I simply went because I was convinced that the Lord wanted me to go. Three days before my announced departure, people began giving me money in $5’s, $10’s and $20’s. The next thing I knew, I had the entire $1,000 to attend the bible school. They gave without request. That was my first example of genuine biblical giving. What the sister wrote about to Frank is an example of believers relying on the arm of the flesh, instead of trusting God.
While being excluded for my age, I’m used to it, I find that my heart totally agrees with the pattern of making disciples of people and training them to do the work of “ministry” (Christianity 101). Since coming into this walk with Jesus back in 1994, I find that it is very rare to find someone who is 1- willing to go to the lengths to disciple anyone in that manner, and who is 2- equipped or able to do so. I’m only in the last 5 years or so coming out of the world’s religious system, and have always looked for “that” type of relationship. I’m finding that if I’m going to be in a discipline type setting, I’m gonna have to equips self and go disciple someone, which is what I have resolved to do.
I think what has happened over the years is that money has been used as the determining factor whether someone was ‘really serious’ about the training. So if you are prepared to part with some hard earned cash, then you must be serious about being trained. A flawed approach in my opinion, but that’s how I see it has occured over the years.
Great Post Frank! I agree with my sister. I say if Jesus did it and Paul did it, why can’t the churches of today do it???
I agree that there is way too much money being assigned to various programs within the local churches. However, I think the problem is bigger than the programs and internships. What we have are ministries following worldly business models. Ministries are not supposed to be run like corporations and pastors are not suppose to be acting like CEO’s. I’ve heard it said so many times in the local church that ministry is business and that’s not the case at all. Ministries are suppose to be a loving expression of the Christ through the local church. When programs are governed by money corruption finds it’s way into the fold. If we follow Apostle Paul’s style of mentoring and leadership, we eliminate these problems. How about Acts 2:44. What a novelty idea. When the Apostles taught the lesson’s they learned from Jesus, it’s said never to deviate from the teachings. Using business models in the local churches can and have been a gross deviation from scriptures and has taken on the assuming spirit of the world.
As a traditional church pastor in exile and former internship director that charged for entry into the program (international locations), I totally understand the concern. Typically, funds raised for the mentoring program like the one I was involved with went to staff salaries and to suplement other things. I attended a Bible college for my ‘training’ but I must admit, the training that the Master did as well as the training Paul offered supercedes everything we’ve ever known. Why aren’t we doing that? Perhaps the ‘ABC’s’ of ‘church’ have changed from the disiplines of Christ to Attendance, Buildings and Cashflow. Just my two cents’ worth.
When one gives of themselves to pour into a life from their own life, they put their arm around a coworker, they are on the same playing field as brothers and they do it organically and, how Frank may put it, according to the Church’s DNA. When we charge money, we offer a service for a fee, we are basically creating a business relationship, we develop hirlings and create a tiered, hierarchal form of training. I’ve seen some good things come out of these programs, however, should good get the better of best?
Peace
Bob
Thx. for the comment, Bob. Really powerful. When you say “why aren’t *we* doing that?” — the *we* is traditional Christianity. This applies to so much that goes on in Christianity today – why have we departed from God’s ways as outlined in His Word. However, some are and will be doing it. That’s the encouraging part. I talk about this very thing in “Finding Organic Church.”
I’m currently a YWAMer. Although experiences vary depending on which base one is at and the different leadership at different bases, my own experience hasn’t been of the kind that the lady referred to in the e-mail. Yes, the schools I’ve done with YWAM have been expensive. But had I done something remotely similar in a university, it would have been more expensive. As far as I can tell, nobody at the base that I’m at makes money. We pay for housing, for food, for travel expenses, etc. but the people on staff raise all of their own money. My life has been transformed by the training I’ve had, and I’ve had the pleasure of seeing other people’s lives transformed as well. Is YWAM perfect? By no means. We absolutely have problems and faults. But in my experience with YWAM I haven’t seen anything negative, especially in the area of finances. The base I’m at is totally debt-free and is extremely good at stewarding their money.
Perhaps the context of what ‘church’ was to Paul is crucial to understand what he was doing by providing for the people he trained. For Paul, ‘church’ was not a place with a paid minister and a paying receiver of ministry. It was a place where Christians on equal footing would meet around Jesus Christ. Or rather, it was a community with Jesus as the centre. The richer would help the poorer pay for life’s necessities. This meant there was no need for internship programs ‘to finance the already existing leaders with fees from the new interns’, as the sister wondered about our current predicament. The life of the church in a certain location was not governed by the necessity of a paid clergyman, or even a team of paid staff. But there were travelling apostles. And Paul was presumably training more apostles to go and travel. However, Paul also made a big point of paying his own way, rather than relying 100% on the finances of others. I guess this would translate to a person working 30-40 hours per week in a normal vocation such as an electrician and then training people in the evenings and weekends. If they live together, then this scenario gives very little logistical problems to overcome.
I think one of the quotes on the House Church Resource website puts it best: “We are living in an age hopelessly below the New Testament pattern-content with a neat little religion.”
~ Martyn Lloyd-Jones ~
P.S. I am in my 30’s and am currently enjoying being part of a fledgling ekklesia.
Cindy,
One of the programs I was involved with was leading dts’s in ywam. It absolutely is a money making venture.
Ok, I will start off by saying I am 31 yrs old and had spent 2 yrs in a Master’s Commission program that cost about $5,500 per nine month school year. While this is a training program, it is also a college education as well. This money goes to the 9 to 11 college courses u take during that time, room and board, not to mention the fact that u travel about 3 out of the 9 months of the program and it covers your food and lodging for those trips as well. I am a licensed youth minister and the training that I received in this program has served to be invaluable as I have benefited from it time and time again. I was one of about 17 students and have watched each of staff members be exceptional stewards of their money and have even had to get additional donations just to pay for the rest of the things they supply the students. I view this as both parties pitching in to help w/the training of the students. My question is u lead by example. So when Paul is working his tail off to earn a living and help others out can we really be so niaeve to think that none of his students were doing a thing to help w/that??? But I’m definitely loving the comments. This is a good conversation!
When I was in my early 30s, I took a YWAM training course, and yes — it was very expensive. In their defense, they provided housing and food, but of course it wasn’t possible to work during this training, and as we had two children, it was difficult to come up with so much money up front.
The cost isn’t my complaint in this instance, though. I’m sure it cost them just as much to keep us and bring in teachers, staff, etc. as we paid. I don’t think it was a big money maker for them. Essentially our tuition paid for the cost of running the base, which was there primarily to train us.
No, the problem is that it was all classroom lectures with a kind of make-believe “mission trip” tacked on at the end in which we jetted to another island and sang at some churches. It was fun, but useless. Not intellectually challenging, spiritually challenging, nor did it help me or my family (or any of the others that I could tell) grow in any intimate knowledge of God or become one with one another.
All in all, I think they did the best they knew how. It just isn’t an effective training method.
Why does it always have to be one or the other? Why can’t it be both? Weren’t there seasons where the church in Jerusalem sent money to other churches? Weren’t there seasons where other churches sent money to Jerusalem?
There have been times in my life where I have been paid for my training, times where I have paid for training, and times where it has been a wash on both accounts. I am grateful for every opportunity and recognize there are cons and pros for all three of them.
I grow weary of hearing one way or nothing – in many things.
I didn’t see a “one way” mentality in anything the sister wrote or in the post. What is under discussion here is the obscene amounts of money that young people are asked to pay for “training.”
The way you posted your comment, it comes off as if you’re saying that her question isn’t valid so “shut up you’re wearing me out.” I think it’s a valid question and shouldn’t be swept under “one way vs. many ways” as that’s not the issue.
I am terribly sorry. I definitely didn’t mean for my comment to come across harsh. I apologize. It seems I have misunderstood her sentiment.
I certainly see this as a valid question and discussion.
Again, I am sorry for my misunderstanding.
On a side note – I have thought about an internship “program” in the future. However, it would include housing, stipend, etc. So this conversation is very helpful to me at the moment.
Many schools I know require an internship before graduation. Unfortunately, most internships are only three months long. Not nearly enough time to be part of the church and really learn whats going on. (Sounds more like summer help than anything.)
Thanks for your comment, Mike. No worries. Sometimes we don’t realize how a comment comes off . . . the Internet is a stale medium. I’m impressed by your humility. May your tribe increase!
On the negative side, the MSNBC documentary “Mind Over Mania” shows how predatory this kind of scheme can become. “Honor Academy” interns with Teen Mania are required to fundraise about $8,000 for their “internship,” which mostly involves working overtime in a menial job (often in a call center raising yet more money for the ministry). And it turns out that even the $8,000 is 42% net excess beyond the costs of the program, so Teen Mania essentially gets free labor and free money. That’s not even getting into the works-based doctrine and allegations of cult-level spiritual abuse throughout the program– for example, interns are taught that if they “break their commitment” and leave before the year is up, God hates them. Seriously. Google “Recovering Alumni” and you will find a lot of people in the blogosphere who are speaking out quite strongly against this model of training!
On the positive side, my current church has a ministry internship plan that’s (a) totally free (funded by a trust), (b) lets interns take over actual hands-on ministry work, and (c) involves one-on-one private mentorship with an elder. It’s patterned after a medical residency type of supervised learning by doing. So yes, healthy models are out there as well. The difference, I think, is in what Michael Spencer aptly called “Jesus-shaped” ministry.
I’m in my 30s, by the way.
What do you think about this sister’s observations and feelings . . . are they valid? What do you think of Paul’s way of training people for ministry, by contrast? If you are someone who is called to the Lord’s work, how do you personally go about finding a mentor or someone to train you . . . what’s your process or has such idea never occurred to you?
This is quite the interesting article. I am 22 myself, just having graduated with a biblical degree from Liberty University and plan on attending seminary at SBTS. I have done quite a few church internships over the few years (with what I am guessing most of those on here call the “instituational” church… sorry, I am pretty new to this blog and havent yet read pagan christianity and the following books… not sure where I am on the issue because I havent looked into it enough…). With that in mind I can understand her comments. Many of the churches I have looked into interning at either paid very little ($50-$100) per week or nothing, which when you have school bills to pay on top of housing and other areas just cant realistically happen. I have never really run into too many internships that force you to pay money to do them unless they are going overseas for some reason. So, I very much understand the troubling portion of being forced to pay for what you should really be paid for. But at the same time I can understand the church not wanting to pay much, especially if they dont know you well (1 Timothy 3:10 idea), or if they are not very well off financially… altough that could be partially due to poor budget allocation. From my personal internship experience, I have been paid from nothing to pretty well (my home church – although the pay was not worth the theological and methodological, etc. trouble they caused). As far as them actually mentoring me goes… most tried some. The one that paid the best (my home church) merely assigned a “staff mentor” to me who never tried to mentor or any such thing, but that could partly be my fault to not putting in the required effort maybe.
Your mention of Acts 20 really blew me away. I never noticed that in all my readings of Acts. It really does make sense. I am actually not working with the church this summer because I financially couldnt afford it (thus am typing this on my lunch break at a law firm…). So, I think if churches were to embrace this it would really help out.
As far as finding someone to mentor or train me, I normally seek them out. I find older men who I admire their walk with the Lord and begin to meet with them regularly and ask them questions and just watch their life. The only problem I have encountered in my years is the fact that older men almost NEVER approach younger men to train them.
Well, sorry for rambling. I hope some of this might be useful. I probably left some stuff out, but that is probably for the benefit of all those who actually took the time to read this comment!
Thanks for the article.
Jordan: Thx. for the comment. You may be interested in “The Untold Story of the NT Church” – https://www.frankviola.org/untold – as it opens up the entire NT in its historical context. Acts 20 is one example of many where countless texts take on new light when read in their chronological, historical sequence.
I have been involved in student, staff & director levels of intense focused ministry internships. I used to agree they are helpful & beneficial. I now disagree and in fact believe that they are across the board harmful and poisonous to people’s souls.
I have noticed this trend, and it’s bothered me too. Mentoring was supposed to be a seamless, natural part of local church life, but it’s become a corporate ‘big deal’ in many ways. This issue is yet more evidence that modern Christendom has become enamored w/hierarchy and doing things the world’s way. The NT is a wealth of “how to” for the Church.. why can we not just stick to the Manual? We don’t have the results the early Church had, because we don’t have the commitment the early Church had.
Jesus told his disciples to leave all and follow Him. It cost them money, time, resources, etc. to do that. I actually work with a large ministry internship program and I have seen the unbelievable fruit that happens in the young peoples lives when they sell everything or raise money for very intentional discipleship. The months they are in the program are actually meaningful to them, they take it utterly serious, get freed up to just focus on their own discipleship for a period, and are astronomically transformed. I say it’s the best investment in someone’s lives and they should pay the price literally to follow Jesus, take their discipleship seriously, and give an uninterupted time to going as deep as possible in God.
Brandon: Some questions that popped in my head while reading your comment:
Did Jesus tell some of His dearest and closest disciples in Bethany to leave all and follow Him?
Did He tell His twelve disciples to give the money to Him when they followed Him?
Given what you wrote, have you sold everything you own and given it to the poor? If so, where do you live? Do you own a car? Just wondering.
I agree that a time of intensive focus on ministry training is beneficial. I think people are questioning the huge sums of money to do it as the fees are way beyond the living expenses.
Thx. for the comment.
Brandon, I’m curious – what do these people do after they leave this intense program? In other words, how does the program, learning how to be very intentional for those months, translate into knowing how to maintain that type of fellowship with others and intensity towards God when they are done with the program and have to go back to “real life” – working a job, being a member of your group, etc. Do they all go on to become fulltime fundraising staff after the program? Is that the goal – to train them to be able to live on fundraising for the rest of their lives if they are really serious about their ministry and personal dedication to Christ?
I guess I’m just asking this because you are talking about seeing the “fruit” in their lives, and I’m wondering what type of fruit you are trying to develop? Are you trying to develop people who take the world by storm as people who have jobs, or people who take a job and always wish they could go back to what they were taught “full dedication” was – when they were able to do nothing except focus on spirituality? I have seen a lot of people fall apart after such intense times, personally, because there becomes a “now what?” after being on such a spiritual high for a while. How do we develop programs that are sustainable, where the passion and fellowship and dedication that are developed within the program flow seemlessly into real life after the program?
And what if someone does “pay the price” to follow Jesus, and gives up everything – quits their job, gives up their apartment, sells their car, etc, to be in your program, and yet, they aren’t able to raise the necessary funds? Do you tell them God must not want them in your program after all? And where do they go after they get out without a car and without an apartment and stuff? I’m not trying to be difficult here, while I am challenging you a bit with these questions, I would like to hear from your perspective how you view these things.
Just to expand the subject, I had conversation with a friend this week about missions. He explained his frustration that his son was spending all this money at a Christian college to get degree in Missiology. After he graduates he’ll have huge debt that will be a ball and chain to his life as missionary. Additionally, the denomination that he will do his mission work with, and consequently is issuer of the diploma, says that he cannot go into the field unless his debt is less than $200.
I am 24 and spent a lot of time in institutional church until about a year ago. I have never heard of anything like this before. I agree with her feelings on this. As far as Paul’s method — wow! God must have given him tremendous strength and passion to do such a thing. I pray he leads me to such faithfulness.
This is a clear failure of discipleship. If churches were training new leaders, they wouldn’t need to go outside of their context and offer internships. They certainly wouldn’t need to have them pay to serve. A leader who serves more than 12 or so people should be developing new leaders to multiply their work. It’s part of the job.
This is such a backwards paradigm for discipleship.
christian education machine looks like the world’s education system of indoctrinating the younger folks to serve/slave for the almighty denomination/dollar to put a smile on God’s face or please yourself with the american dream/stuff……
shouldn’t the parents be training in their households and of course when that’s unstable the local gathering should be on alert by the HS to edify in love…..Sunday/Saturday morning outreach and local men’s and lady’s fellowships????
community naturally trains by example……modeling JESUS
IMHO, volumnes of books could be filled with discerning testimonies like this against the institutional church system (IC).
(I realize that there are many “good folks” in the IC, and many pastor/leaders who have a heart for God; but the overall system is toxically corrupt, and many-many-many have become so defiled that their worldly ways of “building” are deeply injuring multitudes Jesus’ sheep)
Ezekiel in chptr 34 had pointed things to say to false shepherds in Israel that are just as applicable to many pastors/leaders in the IC today.
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to the shepherds: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves!…
4 …but with force and cruelty you [fales shepherds] have ruled them [My sheep].
8 …My flock became a prey,…but the shepherds fed themselves…
Paul said that “we have many instructors, but not many fathers” (1 Cor 4:15), which I think sets the standard for mentoring; fatherhood. During the growing years, a son does not pay his father for raising him. That would be twisted. There may be a time for a son to give back, but that’s obviously when the son has become mature & strong, and the aged father is the one need of care.
I haven’t thought much about this, so these thoughts are somewhat off the top of my head. The first thing which came to mind is that those in charge often seem to limit access to leadership. This is partly because of how churches and Christian organizations run on business models. Many fields limit access through years of school, internships and licensing. The idea is that they have to teach their way of doing things; it’s sort of a club: if you accept their ways, then they’ll accept you. But if you’re outside of the box, you’re barred practicing.
Unfortunately church is very much the same. As Mike Breen pointed out, though many pastors and churches talk about wanting leaders, they really only want “managers” to run the programs they’ve already come up with. It’s unfortunate that people have felt the need to control the church. They fear that if they don’t, people will come in and mess everything up. But the problem is that it’s killed the church because we’re not allowing God to lead through people. While I haven’t thought as much about the issue of money, I’ve thought that many people who God used in the bible would never make it through the screening process in churches and Christian organizations.
Personally I’ve only heard good things about IHOP and YWAM. I imagine they charge because it does cost money to train the way they do. I don’t know exactly how they would be able to do their training without charging (unless they could raise the money otherwise; of course the easiest way for an organization to raise money is by getting anyone who wants to be involved to beg everyone they know for money.) I would think this is the difference between an institutional approach and a more organic one. But most people won’t give up the institutional approach because it appears to be able to reach more people.
Agree wholeheartedly. Mario Savio said it best:
“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part—you can’t even passively take part—and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you’ve got to make it stop! And you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!”
–address given at Sproul Hall, University of California, Berkeley on December 2nd, 1964
Thx. for the quote. Can you send me a source for it?
What I question more about raising the money to go to these leadership programs is why we are trusting in a temporary program to train leaders. Leadership is a part of discipleship, it should be done locally and personally over time. You can’t train a leader in 10 months through classes by a complete stranger- even if they are a “great man of God”.
I have been working with children and youth for over 8 years and the only formal training I have ever done is some CEF classes. I have learned from those around me, through practice and patience.
Leadership training should be organic, just as church should be organic.
I have a hard time with the church deciding to withhold training and equipping of members. Anything taught in these programs should be freely available to the body, and not just to the elite select few who pay the church money. I can see maybe paying for the time of the teacher and the space, but really, isn’t the purpose of the church for the equipping of the saints? Why do I have to enroll in church+ to get the full experience.
Not only are they not equipping the general body, the practice often can extend to despising the part of the body that can’t/won’t participate in the paid program. In my church, if you don’t participate in the school, it is rare that you would get enough time with the pastoral staff for them to know much about you, let alone for them to equip you in a way that is condusive to your gifts.
I think in the case of my church at least, the body is too big for the leadership to lead. I think this is a symptom of it. Rather than recognizing leaders and investing in them as Paul did, they instead created a cookie cutter program for equipping leaders that they can push members though, this minimizing pastoral involvement. Because interest would be more than they can handle, they made it so people with full times jobs, and people without enough money (or raised support) cannot attend, which makes things more managable.
This does not seem to be a wise method of equipping the body.
In the NT, there are 2 aspects of training. There is the discipleship that comes with being part of the Body of Christ (see my article on “Discipleship: A Plea to Learn Our History” in the archives) which involves all believers (or should, anyway). But there is the training up of Christian workers to the apostolic ministry. Both Jesus and Paul gives us the model for this. I discuss this in detail in “Finding Organic Church” which has a lengthy section on the subject. The “church” and the “work” are two very different things, and there’s massive confusion on it today.
I can relate to what Jesse is saying though about Church+, when you have a lot of passion and drive and desire to really build something with your brothers and sisters and not just sit on the sidelines and/or usher/serve coffee. Not all are going to be trained to apostolic ministry, but to really be part of the “team” of the church you are in, to really be in ANY sort of leadership, not just apostolic, one often has to go through these programs.
Agreed.
I was part of a church a few years ago that had a “Leadership College” which required a tuition and was about two years long. I was in my late 20’s to early 30’s and had been serving in different areas, then suddenly had teenagers from the Leadership College telling me what to do and how to do it. They were given titles like Director of First Impressions and were mostly pretty bossy. This actually drove me out of serving in most areas and was pretty frustrating, so I can affirm the letter written to you and sympathize with its author.
In my own experience, I’ve seen that mentoring is best when tailored to the individual. A systemmatic approach can address general problems, but it can also miss someone’s real issues that need to be addressed so that they can move on with the Lord. Discerning the direction of the Spirit for the individual seems important in my mind, and this requires an ongoing relationship.
The college-style approach seems to separate the teacher(s) from the learner(s) so the information is all flowing “downhill”. But in a true mentor-mentee relationship, both sides can stretch the other.
So you have a well meaning, spiritually gifted individual who sees working for Christ as their calling. They truly want to work in the body and reach people… then you put them through the “machine” of “theological training” and what do you get at the end? Another person programmed to seek money and numbers in the pew who has been retrained into not relying on the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, but to rely on man made ways to grow a building and a bank account.
Having seen the book work for one of the pastorial training programs for a major denomination, I can honestly say there emphasis is NOT on relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance, or the Word for that matter, but in proven man made techinques and man made physchology on how to deal with money and people. No where in their “church manual” is there a section on how to train someone, guide someone, lead someone to work in their particular gift. no where. The course simply teaches you how to make the congregation dependant upon the leader for all their needs.
Are we all not called to the ministry? Then why are we not training everyone to be functional in the body of Christ? Are we not all called to have spiritual gifts? then why are only a select few practicing their gifts?
sad sad sad.
It’s like a ponzi scheme. See you pay to get into training. Then once you are trained you go to work in that denomination. Once you have a church in that denomination then you pay “dues” to the state overseer for having a church in that denomination. Then the state overseers pay money to the national conglomerate. yup. in my opinion, a ponzi scheme.
Being a “30 something” individual that has felt the tug to work in the body of Christ. I have prayed for years for a mentor. I never aspired to go through the “mill”. I simply wanted another mature individual who had the particular gift God had given me to work in to show me how that gift functioned in the body of Christ… Sadly, I found out the hard way, that that particular gift isn’t practiced much even in the pentecostal movement. And not much has changed since the Bible was written lol, because people still slaughter (through not physically…there is more than one way to mame someone) anyone working/walking/living out any other gift than the gift of gab…oh I mean tounges.
There are no mentors left. Four states later… I think I can honestly say this. I ran into two amazing ladies back in Ohio.. one had faith, the other had the gift of healing… and it was amazing to listen to them and watch them… and see God. We are His hands and body… where is the image of Christ here on earth?
In a corporate office… not out on the streets…
I’m glad to have found this site…and know I am not alone on my view points. I’ve had all your books same day delivered lol, and I will be busy tonight devouring them.
Thx for your kind remarks and for getting the books. I understand the frustration, but there are mentors on the earth today. Saying there are none left is like saying “BlackJack gum doesn’t exist.” Hard to find in our day, but I have some sources and have the gum shipped to me. 😉 There are certainly mentors, the trouble is they don’t actively recruit or put the name “mentor” on their resume; so most young people naturally look to established and highly visible “internship” programs . . . and spend thousands of dollars getting in.
You found some mentors eventually in those ladies, Never, ever, ever give up. And be willing to travel or bring mentors in to you. You will love the books.
I agree with your emailer. So many of us in our 20’s (I’m 25) long to be mentored and shepherded, but money is a huge obstacle. We have to provide for ourselves and families, and sometimes raising our own income is simply not viable. There are certain cases I think where that makes sense, and it’s noble of those who do it. But in many cases, especially in the church, we need to take a much closer look at how we can provide those needing to be mentored with at least survival income. I heard on NPR the other day that in Germany apprentices are paid for the work they do. I believe it said they typically receive about a third of the average industry pay. That’s a great model for us to begin with.
If we want to raise up and disciple the next generation of leaders, we have to give them income that’s at least fair.
I agree, but i suspect it’s kind of an ‘evil cycle’ or Catch 22, as many ministries who train young people find themselves as organisations in the same boat…they have to fundraise to stay afloat – nobody wants to help them either…
First off, I am a 22 year old male.
When I was almost half way through my university degree, I became passionate about the Lord and spent some time seriously considering going to one of these ministry schools. The biggest issues were that I would have had to delay my studies which would set me back a number of years and also I would have to come up with the money to go.
For about a year previously I had been meeting up with a much older(60 years) brother who had just retired from doing ministry in various prisons. This was by no means a church program or discipleship program. He was a dear brother I had met who I enjoyed spending time with. I would go and visit him every week and we would sit together and just enjoy the Lord through fellowship and sharing whatever the Lord put on our hearts. He would many times give me books and videos to watch. I came to him and asked him about going to this ministry school, and with his wisdom he advised against it for a number of reasons. I consequently agreed with him.
I still meet with him to this day, and a few other older brothers in the Lord. I have grown immensely in my walk with God through meeting with these older brothers. I honestly believe I have learnt more through this type of interaction than I would ever have by going to a ministry school. I see these older men as spiritual fathers. I thank God that they are willing to take the time to listen to me and share with me about the Lord and life.
To answer the question, I think the older generation needs to step up and take younger men and women under their wings. eg. Have a couple of students over for dinner, or even to stay over on a weekend. I believe it takes time, patience and consistency to really disciple and mentor someone in the Lord. I thank the Lord for the people he has put in my life, but sadly I rarely see the same thing happening with other people my age. Paul invested time and money into his younger companions, which I think is necessary to see younger people established in the Lord and for ministry.
Great comment. Thanks!
When mentoring becomes a program with fixed prices, something already has been missed and lost. Learning Christ is the call and promise of every believer, and the Spirit is the best guide. When that living walk becomes a program it is most likely not a way to life. Find Christ in others and walk together with them. . . thought that was what church was for.
What Paul did with and for his coworkers, in my opinion, is more along the lines that “ministry training” should be. Although, according to Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, the various ministerial gifts were given to train the body for the work of ministry. Thus, we are all ministers, in one sense or another.
The training comes from being mentored and sharing life together. So much in ministry training and leadership, including the ridiculous fees, are just man-made. The proof of our training comes through the life we live and our character rather than certificates and documents. I’ve even been told by a pastor friend that being “ordained” was just a fleshly thing and has no spiritual significance. This was right before his ordination ceremony.
One of the biggest problems I see with many of these programs is that they push you to use various gifts and talents before learning to sit in Christ. Therefore many people continue using their natural ability, by their natural strength, in order to minister something of Christ. When our talents need to be broken and we need to sit in Christ before walking things out in Him.
I think the following quote is pertinent:
“The machinery of expertise has replaced the context of the church. Help is no longer a gift. It has become a commodity you have to purchase.” Albert Borgmann
Boy, does this hit a nerve with my husband and me! Our church has an “internship” program, and it is a point of major concern for us. What we see is a group of kids coming in, paying big money for the “privilege” of working with the leaders of our church, and basically being at the beck and call of their “mentors” 24 hours a day. They run bible school, kids’ church, and work as TAs in the classroom at the church’s school, lead worship, etc, depending on which track they are in. They never get a weekend off, and may be required to work late nights, Saturday mornings, etc. in addition to their classroom schedule. And some of tthe things we see them doing don’t look a lot like ministry, but more like slave labor. This seems to be, more than anything else, a way for the church to earn income and get free labor. And it makes the body of Christ lazy! We are not asked to serve in any capacity, as we have been at other churches, because the interns do it all! Thanks for bringing this up for discussion, I’m glad someone has!
I think there is a lot of validity to this lady’s comments. As a young “20 something”, I would feel much less inspired and equipped if I would have had to pay for my training. I wasn’t necessarily payed to train, but I didn’t pay either. At the same time, though, I do understand why many of these programs charge. Not knowing what is offered along with the internship (materials, expenses, travel, time, etc), makes it hard to say it’s worth $5,000, but someone has to flip the bill. Should that be the church body paying to raise up new leaders? Probably. All that being said, though, there are other options out there. Any church in America would love to have a solid volunteer that is willing to serve in any capacity. Serve strong and faithful and you’ll be trained and noticed for future opportunity.
Hope all that makes sense… Great topic, Frank!
Jonathan –
You may be correct that the cost of some of these programs includes housing, or other understandable expenses. I wonder though why we are training our young leaders that they need to pay “up front” for housing and supplies, rather than scheming together of how young people can develop sustainable “tent making” industries that can support their ministries. It would seem that if you are going to have a bunch of passionate young adults living together and learning ministry together, that all that energy could also be used to do business of some sort together or get jobs and learn how to engage with the real world, rather than expecting kids to show up with thousands of dollars they have saved or that were given to them by others.
I also wonder if this is part of the reason that there are so few economically disadvantaged minorities represented in our programs – what is the difference between a middle class white kid trying to raise money for a “ministry internship school” and a black or hispanic inner city kid from a single parent welfare household trying to raise money for this opportunity?
Great point, Heather!
Frank, I relate so much to what this sister shared, I almost could have written it myself! 🙂
As I read over this, I think in particular about this one statement: ” frustrating to find that (a) I’m expected to go through a very basic and expensive training program to learn the basics of Christianity when I’ve been a believer for 25 years already…”
No doubt someone making such a statement might be labeled “unteachable.” But what we’re really talking about here is rites of passage, in a sense – what must one do to be allowed to participate with the movers and shakers in the church? Whether one is a mature, already-trained, equipped christian worker doesn’t mean anything, because how is anyone to know? You certainly can’t go presenting yourself to your leadership saying, “Hi, I’m a mature, already-trained, equipped christian worker. I’m looking for peers to run with. Can we dream and scheme together?” You’d be seen as arrogant and unteachable and who do you think you are, anyway?
So you have to humble yourself and go through whatever hoops are presented, and receiving the training of the organization you are with is proof that you are not a threat, but that you are malleable, that you are able to do it “their way.” Ok, to some degree I can even understand that… but then to say that you have to pay them thousands of dollars to prove your willingness to receive whatever it is they would add to your faith? Paying for the privilege of leadership consideration? And it is one thing if you are single and without kids, another thing if you have a family and are asked to quit your job and come receive their training, at such an expense as well.
Can we make the rites of passage a little more accessible? Can we stop the game-playing and the excuses that “if you can raise the money, it’s a sign that God wants you here, and if you can’t, it’s a sign He doesn’t?” Let’s stop putting both God and His children through the gauntlets we designed, shall we?
This seems a lot more anecdotal than statistically supported, I’d like to see her evidence, since I know that personally I was an intern at a church and I not only didn’t have to pay, I got a free place to live while learning from great men of God how to serve.
This is a common trend the world over. I am from South Africa and “internships” or “Gap Year Programs” are very popular in church circles. I have found the chief motivation for these programs, in churches I am familiar with, to be the need to give young people something to do while they decide what the future holds for them.
The focus is not so much on discipleship as it is on soul winning techniques and bible study. I must admit, having been a youth leader for a while, that the content of these “internships” do not justify the cost. If we truly wish to empower young people for the work of the Kingdom, we need to pour out ourselves as drink offerings for their benefit.
There is an expectation from church leaders that young people should become “sons”, whereas they are not willing to truly father these young folk. Fatherhood precedes sonship, not the other way around. Paul tells us that children should not finance the parent, but the parent the child (paraphrased).
We (the Church) has outsourced the training of our leaders. This is unsustainable. The Church in America will not have the financial resources that we once did or even the ones we have now. We will have to start considering how to do Christianity without. But this is okay. The is absolutely nothing that is central to our faith that costs money. The problem is when our structures, including personnel, start realizing that we don’t have the financial resources to support them anymore. We do need to get back to raising up our own leaders from within our own churches. This may mean that they are less equipped to the grandiose things that we have come to expect from Christianity. But it may mean that they are better equipped to communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those directly around them.
We have an internship program during the summer for college students that basically costs food and housing if we can’t get them taken care of by local church homes.
To take a slightly different spin, I have been blessed to be able to live in the home and with the family of the man who mentors me. We truly “live life together”. It has been a priceless experience. I know that not every mentor has the space or resources to be able to do this, but if at all possible, I see this being the best way to truly learn, grow, etc.
Proud of you Greg!
This has been an issue for me since we started sponsering our youth leaders to go to YWAM and IHOP years ago. We support an Open-Source Ministry model and do the best we can to build on All-Volunteers.
I agree with the orignal writer, the siphoning of funds to train and disciple the next gerneration of church leaders and movers is insane. There is no biblical ground for this and it comes out of a truly selfish motivation that discourages the called and brings in the most affluent but least ready for ministry (in most cases).
Ther are better ways. We stopped sending kids and now we only support when someone asks us diretly to support thier ministry efforts.