This blog post has been revised and turned into a chapter in The Rethinking Series.
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Frank Viola | Beyond Evangelical
Official Blog of Author & Speaker Frank Viola. Digging below the surface and moving beyond the shallows in today's Christianity.
Rethinking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Part V
Rethinking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Part IV
I love the point that those full of the Spirit are obsessed with Christ! So true, and you can’t help notice those who are.
Great series. Well written and researched. I look forward to more.
Here’s a man filled with the Holy Spirit who “looked intently at him and said, ‘O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.’ And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand,” Acts 13’9-11.
I do agree heartily, gifts with fruits (and a worthy Lord’s) Supper as per I Corinthians 10-14. Beautiful behaviour and powerful ministry.
?Immersion of, with, in. Doesn’t the answer lie in the word immersion in the context?
Because of the truths it illustrates I was immersed and raised again in water immersion. I was immersed in the Body of Christ and left immersed as a member in the Body of Christ.
I’m not too keen on any immersion in suffering though! Perhaps I’d better learn to sing psalms (Matthew 20’23; James 5’13)
Thanks, Frank, for this awesome topic discussion. I am enjoying your many insights into this sensitive topic. During my institutional days, I made the choice to join a Pentecostal denomination so that I could participate in certain teaching opportunities. I always had a problem with tongues as THE initial evidence. It never seemed to line up with scripture. Even the proof texts they used were obviously skewed to fit their doctrine, a method many denominations used. The issue has not been as pressing since my organic journey began, but there are still many in our fellowships who have had the traditional teaching, some of which never questioned it, and others, like myself, have questioned it, but have lived with some unanswered questions. Your blog has helped me to see this from a different perspective, and has given me a peace about my concerns about past inconsistencies, giving me some much needed food for thought on rebuilding a strong viewpoint on this doctrine, and for teaching others. I appreciate your insight into the whole Body perspective and not individualistic approaches. Thanks again!
The phrase ‘Baptism OF the Holy Spirit’ is not found in the Bible , unless you do some jiggery pokery with modern bible translations. What we see is the telling phrase ‘baptised BY one Spirit into one body ‘ by Paul in Corinthians. The phrase used in Acts is along the lines of FILLED with the Spirit or baptised WITH the Spirit. These terms are used interchangeably and the accompanying signs can differ , sometimes with speaking in languages, but 100% of the time it is always accompanied by being bold in preaching and glorifying Jesus. It is also a repeatable event. So it would seem we are baptised BY the Holy Spirit at first point of true conversion, and then we can be repeatedly FILLED or baptised afresh WITH the Spirit throughout our walk with God. This is where my studies have led me.
Rayne:
1. As I pointed out in Part I, with/in/of are all proper translations of these texts in various translations.
2. I’ve already pointed you to one translation that uses “of the Spirit” via Twitter. I have no earthly idea what you mean by “jiggery pokery.” What I presented is a VALID translation. However, it’s the title of a blog series and it’s the common term used by Pentecostals and evangelicals. So I’m not sure what relevance it has if the exact phrase is or isn’t in the Bible.
3. If you one wishes to insist that it’s with and by rather than “of”, fine. Again, it’s MOOT to argue that. The title of the blog series doesn’t change anything at all. Read all 5 parts and that will become crystal clear.
4. Not sure how one cay say 100% of the time it leads to bold preaching. Look at the 4 examples I listed in Part III and show me where the evidence is for this IN THOSE TEXTS.
5. In Part IV, I explain what the baptism is exactly, taking all the texts together. If you have a different view, no problem. But I’d love for you to interact with the arguments I’ve actually made.
Thx.
Frank, I’ve been very much enjoying this series over the past few days. I’ve written many of your books and most of your blog posts, and nothing has quite puzzled me as much as this.
What you’re saying makes perfect sense, as far as the scriptures tell us, and that is the most important thing to be aligned with. Here’s my dilemma, over the years, I have operated in all of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12, as well as speaking in tongues.
Tongues, which to this day, I believe I can do on command, has always been a natural thing, never forced, never using any brainpower, as you also at one point noted, you could count to 1-50 in your mind while speaking in tongues. That is always how I have experienced it, but still, I can use it on command. My main question is this; What do you think about this? Is tongues something that could possibly be used at will? Or is it more of an automatic or occasional gift? Are you suggesting that what I’ve been calling tongues is actually just an un-spiritual talent that I’ve perfected over the years? I can’t claim either way, though I have no intentions of faking a spiritual gift.
Thanks for your insight!
Sorry, I meant to say I’ve read many of your books and blog posts.
Most people I know and have met throughout the years who speak in tongues can do it at will if they choose. That’s not incompatible with how it’s portrayed in 1 Cor. 12-14. Other people’s mileage may vary, of course. Btw/ I’m not terribly interested in tongues. Paul rarely mentions it in his letters except when he’s correcting its misuse.
Is this your last entry on the subject? I have some questions, but I’d like to withhold until you’ve completed the series. Also, I would love your thoughts (or you can point me in the right direction) of the difference of the Holy Spirit’s work in the OT and in the NT. At the only church I’ve ever been a part of, there was always a strong emphasis on “Anointing” with much of the OT being the basis for this terminology. Whether the pastor would refer to themselves as “The Lord’s Anointed” or a “Man of God” (usually in a hierarchical tone), it would always strike me as odd when reading the NT and seeing that the indwelling of the spirit is promised to every believer, and that no longer would the spirit be “on” the person but “in” the person. Hope that made sense, thanks!
No, it’s not. And that question is outside the scope of this piece. See the 50 things the Spirit does. My time is limited so I can only do so much on this. I address a lot more in “Revise Us Again” so I recommend you get a copy. https://www.frankviola.org/books
I really appreciate this whole series, Frank, and I think your views line up with the whole of the Scriptures and the historical experience of the church. I’ve never been exposed much to Pentelcostalism in experience, but I’ve been in some hybrid (many backgrounds) charismatic or non-denominational churches where I’ve witnessed the coaching and pressure to manifest gifts. I prefer to focus on allowing the Spirit to manifest the Lord’s life in me in practical daily living and relationships, however that comes about.
Yes, yes yes!!! I just don’t believe it to be of benefit to the body of Christ to be evaluating the “spiritual condition” of one another when it comes to the unseen. Yes, we are to be cognizant and sensitive of each other’s walk in a spirit of love to lift up, encourage, defend, and gently correct when needed…but to outright speak on someones salvation status, relationship with the LORD, or the power of the Holy Spirit is very dangerous. If a person is lost, out of fellowship, or not walking in the Spirit…love and all it’s fruit is always the best remedy…not speaking on their status. I’ve found it interesting over the years how many christians are more interested in their gifts than their fruit…and how many people who don’t exhibit certain “fruit” excuse it with their personality traits; “I’m just not a patient person”; “I just tell it like it is,” etc. The thing is…we aren’t all required to have all the gifts…but we certainly are expected to bear all the fruit…which makes your point of the fruit being LOVE expressed in the various descriptions poignant. If we don’t LOVE…we’ve missed the point of it all…LOVE was and is God’s motivation for it all…
That makes things really clear … thankyou. I still am a little puzzled about the laying on of hands from yesterdays blog. Is it more like a confirmation on a persons life rather than a human act performing some sort of ritual. If it’s confirmation I get it, otherwise I’m not clear on that. Perhaps I missed something.
That’s really another topic. Others have done work on it. You can look it up. But it stretches from OT to NT and has several meanings.
Frank,
Thank you so much for this series. I have been reading it and rereading it. I come from a church background that believes tongues to be that “outward sign of an inward work” but I found too often it was a way to categorize the church as in and out, us and them, spiritual and nonspiritual.
This series is helping me unpack a lot of baggage I have with how the church operated.
I was on staff as the children’s minister. And one of the things I both loved and hated was when I was told to pray for children to receive the baptism. There is nothing better than to pray (and I was VERY careful with the kids, please trust that) for them to receive. But most of the time I could see the Holy Spirit touch them, but they didn’t speak in tongues and it would break their heart and we would both just sit there, crying together. And I’d whisper to them that no matter what anyone told them, Jesus loved them and that they were indeed filled with the Spirit.
Weeks later I’d remind them how I saw the fruit of the Spirit in them, how they were sharing boldly, how they were acting in love and encouraging their friends. I would tell them that I KNEW, but in their mind, because of what friends or family or other church members said, they would feel as if they didn’t experience the Holy Spirit.
Still breaks my heart today.
So thank you for this series. And thank you for presenting an interpretation that doesn’t negate the power of the Holy Spirit, but doesn’t place God in a box.
Amen.
I fist got into all of this in the 1970’s when the Jesus movement was strong – so I have been in the Charismatic, or Pentecostal groups most of my life. I have been right where you have described, focusing on speaking in tongues, but also seeing some great stuff the Lord has done over the years.
Today there are still people who focus on the gifts, or the manifestations of the gifts and go chasing after experiences (like the Jesus bumps in worship) and live lives that are quite self focused. I agree with your emphasis on the fruit that should be evident in the life of a person who is filled with the Spirit.
One thing I like to remind people of, is that the real “gift” is the Holy Spirit, it is not just some expression.
Instead of focusing on experiences, there should be expression of maturity and a life that is given to service, where the character of Christ comes forth.
Instead of chasing after signs, I exhort people in a more excellent way. Mark 16:17 tells us that these signs shall follow….
If one is really filled with the Spirit, there will be an overflow and the life of Christ will be seen, and ministry and love will come forth.