The following post was written by Heather Goodman.
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If you’re in a conversation with someone about some way of thinking you think they need to see from your perspective, the following statements are unhelpful and bad form:
1) “You can only understand what I’m saying by revelation.” (Gee, what are they supposed to do with THAT?)
2) “You need to go research a bit and then come back and talk to me.” (How do you know they haven’t researched this topic more than YOU and *still* see it differently than you do? Don’t make assumptions!)
3) “You need to stop thinking so much / get out of your head / stop being so intellectual about this.” (What that usually means is that you are weak at explaining your position, so you’d rather the person just swallow what you are trying to teach them without thinking much about it.)
4) “I used to think like you on that topic – but God set me free.” (Do you know how this sets up your own experience/perception as the authority and puts the other person beneath you as you are the expert and they are still in your prior “childish” state?)
See also . . .
The Art of Being a Jerk Online
We Have Not So Learned Christ: On Internet Correspondence
The Anatomy of a Slanted Critique
An Important Insight from President Obama
Co-Authoring: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
I hope not…but I do think in my younger years I was more harsh in conversations of ideas than I am now. I try to talk less and listen more and realize that I may not change the other’s mind…just enjoy the discourse and try to learn something new myself. Even if I am 100% right on a topic, I can learn the struggles that others have with a topic which can help me find a new approach or some understanding of the other’s position and point of view so that I can possibly learn a better way or more informative way of presenting my idea(s). In my youth my goal was to convince you to agree with me LOL…AND…I love debate and investigative discourse…but some people do not…you have to learn who to argue with and who to be more gentle with 🙂
Thank you Frank! I have someone doing all 4 to me right now! I’m citing this link in my response.
Heather Goodman wrote it.
I recall a discussion I had with a brother once who said he understood some of us are at different legs in the journey. Some have arrived and some have barely left the station. Then he went on to graciously extend a welcome to me and my family to join his congregation… and we were welcomed to stay until we arrived.
But I confess I’ve used many of these at times myself. It is so easy to get emotions wrapped up in your doctrine and feel threatened when those areas get wrattled on a bit. Mature love casts out fear… God grant us tender and open hearts.
Every one of the points made are not incorrect depending on the circumstance, tone and context to which they have been brought about. I do not consider them mistakes at all but they can be if used defensively or to avoid further discussion or dissent on an issue. I will expand/elaborate/exposit later.
It is interesting to note the several comments here that refer to these tactics being used by mormons… I find these tactics being used all the time by evangelical christians – but the truth is, we’re not as different by and large from cultists as we might hope to be.
Yep, I think I used them all in my earlier years when I thought I knew everything; now I know nothing so it’s not a problem but it really made me laugh as I thought about the people I turned off in the day. I’m hoping they don’t remember me.
Good post. Emotions seem to play a big role. The more we are emotionally invested in a particular position the more we dislike being challenged on it. So many times we get our identity cemented in theology when it should be cemented in Jesus. When we understand that we can be wrong and still be loved and valued by God, we can start to have constructive conversations.
Loved the post, although your last point — “I used to think like you on that topic – but God set me free.” made me think of Paul’s words to the Philippians in 3:15 “All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.” LOL But I love how Paul gives the Philippians an “out” when he says in verse 16 “Only let us live up to what we have already attained.” In other words, you may not agree with me on this but at least live up to what you do know! God Bless you and keep up the Good Word!
Along the same lines as #1 and #4 is when someone says, “God told me….” All of the statements — including #3 when it is used as related in the blog — are used to bring an end to the discussion, while placing that person on some sort of spiritual high ground where they aren’t to be questioned. There’s a prideful spirit behind each of those statements.
Ah, pulling the “God told me” card . . I wrote a whole chapter on that in “Revise Us Again.” Combustible response.
The “God told me” card can be really damaging when it comes from someone you really trust but you know is wrong in whatever situation.
Frank, I’m so blessed and honored to be featured in your blog – thank you. 🙂 And thanks to all your awesome blog followers for engaging with their thoughtful and reflective comments.
I did want to jump in on this discussion about the God-card and thought perhaps we could expand the card-playing analogy on this point:
I think the “God told me” card should be in our decks. As believers, cultivating a relationship with the Holy Spirit and learning to hear His voice is definitely a great goal to have and I believe something that is quite attainable.
But the problem is that too many people treat the “God Told Me” card as if it is an ACE and has a higher value than all the other cards another brother or sister might put down on the table. Instead, the “God Told Me” card should be played humbly, like a #2 or #3, and when it is put on the table, it should be known that it cannot in and of itself beat anything else someone might put on the table. In combination with other cards, like if it is used in a straight or a full house or a flush, then it can do some real damage.
Simply put: the Lord’s revelation is not some elusive thing that can’t be discussed or reasoned about. Part of life in community with one another is learning how to share revelation in a way that someone else can connect with and receive, or in a way that they can reasonably refute should it be incorrect. It’s not a trump card and the great thing about real revelation is that it is transferable, contagious, impartational – it’s not some excuse for us to say to someone else, “Well, you just can’t get what I’m saying because you need revelation.”
It may be true that the other person needs revelation, but that’s not a level for us to relate to someone else on. Our job is to be “apt to teach” and “instant in season.” If the Lord has released us to share something with someone else, the revelation should be readily available in the act of sharing it, IMHO.
Thx. Heather, in “Revise Us Again” I have a chapter entitled “The Lord Told Me” . . . and in it, I argue that we should never use this phrase when trying to win an argument. In fact, I argue that in most cases, we shouldn’t use the phrase and I go into the biblical examples on this as well as telling a few interesting stories from personal experience. It goes right along with this post of yours.
For those interested . . .
Guilty of 3… though I’m more aware and have been working on this in my conversations. It’s tricky when you feel you have figured something out not to belittle people even on accident with no ill intentions.
I actually didn’t notice so much until it started happening to me. Once I made this shift and my theology changed I was talked at and belittled for my false doctrine. Interesting to think about.
Frank, thanks for sharing. This is a great reminder for myself.
Ooh – #4 drives me nuts! I get that a lot from other mothers and homeschoolers who believe my parenting/educating style is wrong. But I have heard it before in theological discussions. In my head, I thought, “Oh how enlightened and superior are you!”
Here’s another way to say that same sentiment (and I have heard this before) – “I believe that if people pray and seek God on this matter that eventually he will reveal to them the truth.”
Thanks for the reminder Frank….treat others the way we want to be treated.
In general, I agree with Heather’s points, however, let me share an experience from a couple of months ago that reflects one of those points in a different light.
My wife and I were at lunch with a couple of dear friends with whom we share a strong mutually beneficial relationship. In our conversation I reflected a struggle I was having with a particular concept and Dwayne told me, “You need to cut off your head”… at which I will admit I was momentarily offended. Later, recognizing my own deeply ingrained heritage in a very legalistic theological system, I simply began to pray that God lead me to understanding–after all, isn’t that what Jesus said the Spirit would do for us? Within a day I had absolute clarity on a topic that had been a very real struggle for me intellectually.
So, what had happened? I’m not sure, but I can tell you what I believe. I believe that when I got my head out of the way and truly sought guidance from HIM, He fulfilled my need. Revelation? Not to my understanding… probably enlightenment would be a more accurate description of what I received.
There are times a very close friend can say to us what we need to hear but would never receive from a stranger. (and which a stranger should never speak to us, perhaps?)
Jack…I think the key is “dear friends”…you know in your heart those people who truly want you to come into truth and then there are those who are defensive, arrogant, know-it-alls 🙂 Thank GOD for those “dear friends” that stick closer than a brother…
Interesting, as I’m having an ongoing conversation with two LDS missionaries. #1 and a version of 2 have been a recurring theme.
I had a pastor who told me “you think too much” and it went far beyond shutting down the discussion. I had always valued my intellect and curiosity as gifts from God. Now a “spiritual authority” was telling me that no, God didn’t make me this way; I was fundamentally flawed as a human being and a Christ-follower. It was profoundly wounding. Heather’s right…don’t do this!
I see Heather’s point of view and understand the semantics of these statements as being at least subtly offensive. I also see Nick’s point referencing the tactics of cults using 1 and 4 in particular.
However, don’t leave us here. Come back with what TO DO rather than stopping at WHAT NOT TO DO. Help those who have strong testimonies to understand how to get past the walls people throw up.
Jacquie: I address your request in some of the links at the bottom of the post. The rule of thumb is to treat others the way we want to be treated. I sketch out what that looks like in those posts, since it’s not intuitive for everyone.
I used to think that way, but I’ve been delivered :}
Thanks for this post, Frank. It’s a good reminder, as it’s easy to fall back on these arguments in moments of frustration and when our focus moves away from Christ.
Interestingly enough, I had numbers 1 and 4 used on me last night by a Mormon missionary, haha.