One of the most gifted writers of our generation is Mary DeMuth. Mary has the unique talent of switch-hitting in literature. That is, she has the exotically rare ability to write both fiction and nonfiction. And she excels at both.
But more than her flare for the writing craft, Mary’s insight into Jesus Christ is beyond that of most contemporary writers. She’s also accessible (something I highly value in authors), friendly, discerning and generous.
In other words, she exhibits the Lord Jesus.
I caught up with Mary recently to talk with her about her recent book, Everything: What You Give and What You Gain to Become Like Jesus.
Enjoy the interview and pass it on.
Mary, instead of asking, “what is your book about,” I’m going to ask the question that’s behind that question. And that unspoken question is, “how are readers going to benefit from reading your book?”
Mary DeMuth: They will be able to see their difficult circumstances not as intruders but as friends and companions to lead them to deeper, more meaningful growth in Jesus. We are a pain-averse folk, but the reality is, this crazy life brings pain. Instead of avoiding and denying that reality, why not lean into it and glean everything we can from our difficult place? As I look back on my own journey of growth, it’s always been the hard circumstances that brought me the greatest, deepest growth.
I was on the treadmill while reading your book and almost had an accident when I read your references to T. Austin-Sparks and Keith Green! Both of these men – especially Sparks – were profoundly instrumental in my Christian journey. I never hear authors mention them today, especially Sparks. (I dedicated Jesus: A Theography to him, in fact, with the hopes that readers will rediscover this luminous soul whose words are still steadfastly anointed.) I’m very interested in how you heard of these two brothers in Christ and what impact they’ve had on your own spiritual journey.
Mary DeMuth: Sorry to hear about your near-accident! I’m a child of the 80s (just ask my poor kids about my 80s playlist I torture them with). And during the 80s, Keith Green reigned. His music came to me right after I met Jesus, and it remained with me after he died, reminding me that Christianity wasn’t about my comfort but about His lordship. In the late 80s while I attended college, I met with a group of students who studied revival and movements of God. T. Austin Sparks came into that discussion/longing. We were on fire for God!
We wanted to see Him move mightily on our campus. Sparks (through his book) reminded us that a movement starts with our personal connectedness to the Almighty. Another book I read during that time that I tend to read every year is The Calvary Road by Roy Hession. Again, this book reminded me that Christianity wasn’t about me being perfect on the outside, but broken on the inside. There is no room for playacting or for spiritual pride. Hearing George Verwer speak about brokenness at the Urbana ’87 conference cemented a lifelong belief that the kind of Christian I wanted to be was a teachable, humble, broken, dependent one.
Give us two or three of the most important pieces of advice you have for people who want to surrender everything to Jesus and be more like Him?
Mary DeMuth: One. You can’t change the world when you try to make it happen through control. Control freaks (of which I am one) cut off God’s ability to get a word in edgewise, and negates His power through us. Only a surrendered heart welcomes the power of God. But we so worship the idol of control, I doubt many of us even know we do it.
Two. We cannot worship God and money. For many of us, we can turn to money for the help we need. If we are sick, we call the doctor and make an appointment. If we are sad, we buy something to fill a hole inside. I learned by hanging out with my friends in Ghana that there are places in the world where money cannot fill a hole because it does not exist. My friend Paul’s first instinct when he gets sick is to pray. Mine is to call. I don’t think we realize just how much we fill our lives with finances rather than God.
Three. There is exponential joy in the word SURRENDER. But we don’t think so. We’re duped into believing it’s a painful, awful word. But I can honestly attest that learning to surrender brings such peace. It’s like believing that if you share your terrible childhood secret, the world will implode, people will judge you, and you’ll face rejection. The secret has eaten away at you for years, festering in the dark. And then you share it, surrendering it to the light, so to speak, and all those fears wash away. You’re set gloriously free. I believe Satan wants us to hold on to secrets, to control, to fear. He’s duped us into thinking living an authentic life is too risky or dangerous. Only to find out he’s a big, fat liar, and he knows that if we surrender, God does amazing, joyful, wonderful things. Surrender is not a dirty word; it’s a beautiful avenue toward a peaceful life.
You talk about the importance of death occurring in order to bring about significant things in the Kingdom of God. Can you elaborate on what that means?
Mary DeMuth: Jesus said, “Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.” John 12:24 It’s the paradoxical ways of the kingdom that death brings resurrection. We push against it—death of a dream, death of a ministry, death of a relationship—worried that death means finality, a period at the end of a painful sentence. But Jesus is in the planting/reaping business. It’s when we experience death that we can finally see resurrection.
A tangible example: When we planted a church in France, nearly every bad thing that could possibly occur happened. I remember lamenting to my husband, “Why would God bring us here to fail? What is the point of this?” I gave into despair, lost myself for a bit, and wondered why-why-why. I still don’t know all the whys, but I can say this: the most significant growth in my heart came on the soil of France where most of my dreams died. Paradox!
Today there are several very large movements that are attracting tons of Christians in their 20s and 30s. One of them speaks mostly to the head, the other mostly to the emotions, and the other mostly to the will (the three parts of the human soul). While God is certainly using these movements (as He does with most things), there’s very little spiritual depth in each of them and very little understanding about the fullness of Jesus Christ. This is a problem that concerns me greatly as I write mostly to this age group. What sorts of things do you think will help the 20s and 30s in these movements to get exposed to the deeper things of God? I’ve found that many of them don’t even know that a deeper message of Christ exists because they basically listen to all the same voices. (That’s their testimony, anyway, after they do get exposed to it). I call it the echo-chamber phenomenon.
Mary DeMuth: First and foremost is this: a celebrity is not your discipler. Sure, we can learn from folks, but they are just folks, and they are not in our lives 24/7. Unfortunately, I sometimes see the seedy side of movements as an author and speaker. I grow disillusioned at the disconnect between fame and daily life.
I love what Michael Card writes in Scribbling in the Sand: “Never cease praying that you will not become a star or celebrity. Donald Davidson has said, ‘Our culture places an absolute premium on various kinds of stardom. This degrades and impoverishes ordinary life, ordinary work, ordinary experience.’” That being said, we live in a guru-driven culture of folks running after famous gurus, nabbing spiritual blessings and nuggets of wisdom. We forget that true, deep growth comes in the context of our real-life, non-cyber, non-conference-attending community. To engage the heart, soul and mind, we have to rub shoulders with folks without pretense. We have to be vulnerable and willing to listen to the hard stuff. We have to sacrifice. We have to let real people into our lives.
Instead of flocking to Christian celebrities or movements, it’s better for our souls to flock to the manner in which Jesus conducted His life. He had friends, close friends. He lived simply. He often avoided fame and crowds.
I also think it’s instructive to see that when Jesus bid someone to follow Him, He asked the person to DO something. Wash in the pool of Siloam, sell everything, drop the nets. Sometimes we think that growth will just happen to us, but there’s an element of us choosing to pursue, choosing to do. We had to choose to follow God’s voice and move our family to France. That one painful choice resulted in amazing growth. It involved connectivity to Jesus (being able to hear His voice), a willingness to obey (actions), and an overcoming of our fears (emotions).
What else do you want readers to know about your excellent book?
Mary DeMuth: Well, first, thanks for the sweet compliment of “excellent.” My hope is that every book I write be better than the one before. I don’t want to settle. So as an author, your words are salve.
What I’d like readers to know: This is a dangerous book. It’s not a self-help tome with ten easy steps to the happy life you’ve always wanted. It’s an honest book about longstanding growth, the kind that lasts through your years. It’s not about fly-by-night spiritual success or surface-y gimmicks. It’s about the heart, which is why the cover has the word “Everything” in a heart. The Christian life is not about decorating the outside of our hearts and lives with Jesus junk. It’s about letting Jesus deal with the junk in our hearts.
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This was a great interview, Mary, and I agree with Frank–you’re a gifted writer of fiction and non-fiction. And I definitely agree with you about brokenness. One of my favorite quotes (which I will quote badly) is ‘God never greatly uses a man for His glory whom He has not first deeply wounded.’
France wounded me deeply (and still does at times) but it’s as you say–that’s where we go deeper into Jesus.
Merci!
“The Christian life is not about decorating the outside of our hearts and lives with Jesus junk. It’s about letting Jesus deal with the junk in our hearts.”
This entire post really speaks to me. The comments, especially the comment from Tanya, are also a blessing. When we are in the “slogging days”–days when we feel that we may never get all the way through the mud and muck, is when we must hold tightest to the hand of our Savior. I have been through those epochs and always find myself stronger at the end, not because of anything I have done but because of what Christ does in me. Mary, you have such a gift of putting those feelings into words for us; I sometimes wonder if you’ve been peeking into our lives…
May God continue to hold you close.
hi there, mary,
i’m so glad i discovered your blog home recently, & enjoyed reading more about your book here (& looking fwd to your upcoming one!).
there’s so much here that resonates with my own journey. a journey of discovering that comfort is not the goal, that we find freedom when we lean into the pain, & the life springs from death. these painful lessons have become passions in my soul, though, because of the freedom i’ve found in the surrender.
when i was in the thick of a recent health crisis, i was reading miles sandord’s green letters, & it forever sealed the reality of john 12:24 in my soul. it’s so good i gotta share it with you:
“sooner or later, the grain of wheat finds itself, not high up on the stalk, but dropped to the earth, into the cold & strange darkness. and still worse, the earth smears & injures that nice shiny golden coat.
worst of all, the coat begins to disintegrate & fall to pieces. all that is not Christ, no matter how nice in appearance & profession, is revealed for what it is — just self.
there is a further stripping, right down to the germ of life, right on down until there is nothing left but Christ, who is our life. down, down into death.
patience, grain of wheat: though He slay me, yet i will trust in Him (job 13:15).
. . . we need to enter deeply into the truth that Christ the Beloved Son of the Father could not enter to the glory of heaven until He had first given Himself over to death.”
thanks so much for sharing your heart with us, mary.
blessings to you & yours,
tanya
Wow, Tanya, that is a beautiful quote and idea. Thank you for posting it here.
“When we experience death that we can finally see resurrection.”
This is a valuable truth that is quite often overlooked as having any relevance to Christian life. However it is so profound in dealing with the old nature which shows up from time to time.
But I must also add that Jesus death, burial and resurrection was also the place of our death, burial and resurrection; we don’t have to kill off the old man by our own effort. We simply have to agree with Jesus that His work on the Cross was our place of freedom.
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Mary’s advice regarding control, mammon and surrender is right on. Gaining freedom from these Christian ministry vises is found at the Cross.
Well said, Gordon. We have died, and our life is hidden in Christ. Sometimes my will lives on…and I have to remember this.
Deep and true, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this important issue, Mary DeMuth. I suspect I’ll need to get my hands on your new book as it lines very well with the direction God is leading in my ministry work. Thank you for pouring yourself into the hard work of loving God and others well.
Thanks so much for your comment, Ann. I appreciate it. May your ministry be deeply and widely blessed by Jesus.
Mary is, also, a very giving person. She has helped other writers with their writing skills. She has had input in some of my own writing. Thank you Mary.
Jerry
Jerry, that’s sweet to say. I’m so glad I could be of help.