This post has been revised and is now part of my full critique of Strange Fire.
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Strange Fire: A Refutation – Part I
Strange Fire
Let’s try this again.
Mr. MacArthur, a man I have never met in person, is speaking foolishly and recklessly against The Spirit, and his ignorance will not excuse this.
Is he a bad person? Nah. Just mistaken, is all. Will he die and go to Hell? Well, I can’t say because I do not now Mr. MacArthur, but I would guess he will not go to Hell based on his other writings. He will, however, stand not before an angry and jealous GOD, but a disappointed Father who had so much more for him than he would receive from Him. In simpler terms, Mr. MacArthur is quenching The Spirit and missing out on SO MANY THINGS, and his pride and stubbornness is to blame.
Shame, that.
So John MacArthur wants to teach that the present-day ministry of The Holy Spirit has stopped.
That’s just foolish talk. Utterly and painfully foolish.
I am wondering, after all these years, if Mr. MacArthur can be brought to the place of realizing his erroneous mindset and teaching. I mean, it’s not like he hasn’t been approached once or twice about it from someone who knows The Spirit in power and authority.
Should any of us seek to restore him at all? Can any of us convince him through words? I wonder if anyone has asked The Spirit to show Mr. MacArthur about Himself in an Elijah/prophets of Baal-type situation? Or through a demonstration of His power, up close and personal? If that did happen, would Mr. MacArthur default on his foolish pride and deny what he saw, or would even he be convicted?
Curious.
All I can say is thank you so much.
Thank you Frank for this series of posts. I will look forward to the remaining posts with anticipation. I like you, do not care to associate with some of the extremes of what is labeled the Charismatic Movement. I am, however, a charismatic if that term is to be understood in it’s most basic form. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit continue today. I do not believe so for emotional reasons but because I believe that a plain reading of the scriptures leads me to that conclusion.
Our brother John McArthur has, in my opinion, gone to unacceptable extremes. Never the less we must reflect soberly on the extremes that have emerged within the charismatic movement. As a Pastor and missionary in an African context, I have seen the terrible damage that has been done by such teaching.
Such teachings have often made us Christians the subject of ridicule. I am quite happy to be considered foolish but let it be the foolishness of the Cross.
Also Mark, its really their LACK of experience that drives their doctrine, as many former cessationists will admit. And they will continue to lack experience if they continue to limit Christ and quench his spirit. He could do few miracles where there was unbelief.
One of the more bothersome things coming from this hullabaloo is the cessationist claim that “they”(I hate the “us vs. them language and mentality) use scripture to support their position while the continualist appeals to experience as his authority. What I don’t understand is how they can not see that my “experience” more accurately reflects what the scriptures say than their “correct” doctrine.
God Bless you Frank and Staff and all the brothers and sisters on this blog – you all nourish me.
I spent 20 plus years in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles. Where I parted company was the fleshly abuses. However I did not abandoned the Holy Spirit nor what I had experienced in Him – to this day.
I found myself in a group of wonderful believers and stayed for 9 years. The pastor was a self avowed ‘hyper-Calvinist’ and a McArthurite. McArthur’s named was mentioned almost as much as Jesus name. The Pastor and E;ders went to JM Shepard’s Conference every year. JM holds special conferences where attendies are hand selected – Pastor seemed to always make the cut.
Several things became very clear over time. First, man’s intellect (the one God needs to renew) was very important. Second, the leadership was afraid of the Holy Spirit ‘moving’ and that things could get out of control.
Third, Men’s Bible Study went to ALL JM prepared material.
By this time I was learning ‘living by the Indwelling Life if Jesus’. I picked up on the idea from the Mes’s Study that man, if he could learn the why and where the OT saints failed with regards to sin – they could do better because we believers had the Holy Spirit.
Fourth, Sola Scriptura was their base if one believed a specific interpretation – theirs! One of the kast statements I made in the Mes’s Study (I had pretty much been marked a heretic) was, ‘ Obedience should flow from the believer (living by the Indwelling Christ which they had no teaching)as sin does the sinner. There was a big roar from the meeting. They did not receive we are not sinners saved by grace either. They were sinners saved by grace and refused their new idenity in a new creation.
Fith, as with many groups the eyes are on the external flesh and ‘bad or destructive’ behavior.
Sixth,Discipleship to them is not learning to live by the Indwelling Life, but in learning doctrine!
God Bless,
Brad Heath
“McArthur’s named was mentioned almost as much as Jesus name.” That is so funny. I’ve never heard it worded that way before. Thank you.
Thanks Frank. I must say that my experience of the book was somewhat different to yours. It assisted me at the time (the early nineties) to understand the cognitive dissonance I had been experiencing as a young, confused Pentecostal pastor, and gave me the courage to leave the movement years later. I have never regretted any of that, and have always been grateful for its publication. Today my pneumatology is probably 99% aligned to yours, and I am in full agreement that the book has severe shortcomings. But I cannot help but wonder how many people have actually been helped by it. As one who was almost driven nuts by Charismania, the book was just what I needed at the time.
That’s probably the best reaction to something that paints all charismatics with the same brush. And goes beyond by saying that the gifts have ceased. A person use this same strategy with any movement or denomination, including the Reformed.
John MacArthur is a terrible preacher and teacher.
I sometimes listen ( just to see if he is being consistent ) to his “sermons” on my drive into work.
Just dreadful. He is an assurance destroyer. No gospel to be found coming out of his mouth.
I read Charismatic Chaos years ago and followed his arguments somewhat but when I compared them to scripture, they fell short. My biggest concern in the church today is that, while I find no evidence that any of the gifts have ceased, I find so little evidence on the ground that they really work. Where are the apostles and prophets? These gifts have been ignored or trampled under foot for too long. Where are the true gifts of healing and miracles? They are operational in poor countries but are very scarce in NA. A recent writer made an astute observation when he said that while the love and grace of God is given freely, the blessing of God that produces genuine healing and transformation is withheld because of abject idolatry within the Body of Christ. As long as we’re quick to ape one another’s perceived successes or play our games inside our four walls, our gatherings will never be organic and true body life never be realized. Finally, John 13;35 still remains the true benchmark of discipleship. I have experienced more genuine love from those that do not profess Christ than from those who do. Do you think He will really endow a loveless and idolatrous Body of Christ with the true gifts of the Spirit which, in the end, only produces self-glory?
I think this is probably a factor as to why we don’t see them more than we do. However, apostles and prophets do exist, but the ones I know never describe themselves by those terms. Many Christians are unaware of what an apostle and a prophet is exactly and there’s been a boatload of misteaching in this area.
I think this is part of the problem I have with the “movement”. And perhaps we all fall guilty of this, too. (There’s plenty of guilt to share).
But there seems to be an elevation of individuals by giving titles like “Apostle”, “Pastor”, “Evangelist” as if these titles somehow gave one credibility, honor, and respect. (Of course, this can equally apply to “Dr.” and “Brother” (capital B).
The roles of apostle and prophet may still exist–perhaps not the way we view the Twelve. But I most often these words are not used as titles but descriptions. I can’t help but think of Jesus’ words “Do not call any one ‘Father’ or ‘Rabbi/Teacher’…” Why? I think the pride and assumed authority that are so often associated with them. They distract from the one who is the true Father and the true Rabbi: God.
Personally I wish we would just do away with all titles. I dislike being addressed by anything other than my name.
Darryl. I agree. With respect to the title “Pastor,” few people blink at that one. Hence, “Pastor Mick” and “Pastor Josh” is accepted by many believers.
As I point out in “Reimagining Church,” honorific and reverential titles are incompatible with the ecology of the first-century church and the direct teachings of Jesus. And for good reason. Some men will sell their souls for a title because of what it brings!
Frank, thanks for laying out the background for the historical “round one”. Appreciate the context. Each era takes the living faith in the living Jesus and codifies it to “control it”. Every wave of reformation is seen as a threatening heresy.
My experience has been that the established evangelical church of today has trouble recognizing what Jesus has been doing in his church as the “Gospel.” New Birth, Holy Spirit, Jesus is Lord, Transformation, Kingdom of God, when these become real WE lose control.
We say here, “‘Lord’ means ‘in charge’.” Looking forward to continuing installments. May Jesus continue to use you. Enjoying reading through your works and your discipleship course.
In 1 Cor. 13: 8-10 says that certain spiritual gifts “will pass away.” It reminds me of a statement I read in a Greek textbook about the “future indicative” mood. The future is uncertain – this is the gist of it. Normally, the indicative mood describes facts in the present or past tenses. But in the future, it is less related to reality than in the other tenses. To read into this passage that “they have passed away” because “the perfect has come,” is problematic. One would have to impose history upon God’s Word, rather than have a word from God to establish it. Since we don’t have that word from God, to give history that kind of power is an error. Jesus gave His disciples promises that if they “ask anything in My (His) name” He would do it. It’s hard to imagine God opposing present day disciples asking for things that believers in the early church experienced, and were from God, to categorically refuse. Why would He do that? I appreciate your advice, Frank, about going about theology with humility. “What do you have that you did not receive, and if you did receive it, why do you act as if you did not?” God have given us our minds. They are gifts. We are “fearfully and wonderfully made.”
Based on my study of church history and theology, I think that ‘cessassionist’ doctrine is spurious ‘new revelation’ that is not according to the Scriptures. 😉
Thanks for this,Frank. I wrote something similar long ago in response to my husband bringing home a Amish/Mennonite pamphlet attacking charismatics.
My personal 30+ years experience (off and on) with some of the wildest sides of the ‘movement’ is that there are some deplorable excesses that I would be the first to point out. But so many precious people being used to minister to others (I refer to the people on the ground, not the ‘superstars’), and I have NEVER heard any Charismatic or Pentecostal, from the pulpit or pew say that everything does not have to be rigorously judged by the scriptures — indeed I heard many teachings encouraging that by all stripes of people. Now maybe they don’t always follow that, or maybe they come to conclusions we disagree with, but I always get hot when someone sets up the straw man that Charismatics do things akin to writing the book of Mormon. Indeed most Charismatics I know spend way more time in the scriptures and know them better than any other Christians I have fellowshipped with.
It’s interesting how it comes around and around. I spent time in the summer of 1978 reading my Bible, John MacArthur’s ‘The Charismatics’, and books by British leaders in renewal (as we called it then) like Michael Harper. I came away then convinced that the case made by those in renewal was better aligned with how I read the scriptures and made better sense of the evidence through church history and now.
Never occurred to me that 35 years on ….
I remain very, very grateful to those who hold a similar position to John MacArthur on these issues for the wonderful grounding they gave me in so many areas. Increasingly aware, too, of how power is misused by some in ‘Charismatic’ circles. But I just find John MacArthur’s position on the Spirit and on how God works today to be untenable.
After listening to MacArthur’s first day broadcast of strange fire, It became clear that he was simply comparing one religious box against his own. But in his attempts to compare he quoted John 4:23 …those that worship God will worship in Spirit and truth. Yet he took the position that he was upholding the “truth” side. I think we can give him credit for seeing some flaws in Charismania, yet to take such a strong position in correcting the body of Christ, he should also be ready to show us the true measure of the Spirit at work in ministry. To critique without a viable alternative is the real travesty. shadow-free(.com)
Thanks. btw/ Charismatics and Pentecostals themselves have addressed these flaws already. I’ll give evidence for this in my critique. Stay tuned for Friday!
I read _____ posts on “Strange Fire” conference and was awaiting for some responses to counterbalance the conversation. Although this is an issue that stays mainly withing scholars and theologians, the fact that they launched a week conference on the topic raises a red flag that can not be ignored. Eventually, it will go down to the people of God and could bring confusion, discouragement and disfellowship (if you allow me to create that word). I am a church planter in Corozal, Puerto Rico. My congregation is of about 20 members and I have the responsibility to prepare them in advance of what is coming regarding this issue. I’ll be here waiting for your Refutations.
Great. I don’t pay attention to that blog hence why I didn’t comment. 😉 It’s pretty much an echo chamber.
Hi Frank,
I enjoy reading your blog. Have you thought of sharing your concerns with John personally? Have you sent any of your responses to him? Perhaps he could even change some of his perspectives regarding the movement, and make it public. It could be a positive thing, much like Paul and Peter in Galatians!
Yep. I sent him the critique in 1994 when I wrote it. The response: crickets. 🙂
Thank you for taking this challenge. You have begun with precisely the reason Strange Fire is so troubling to me — as someone who sat under his teaching & graduated from his college & still has many strong ties to the institution. I’ve been pestering some people about the stat used for MacArthur’s statement on the OCT 18 post on the Cripplegate blog:
“Another accusation has been that we are talking about something that is only true of the extreme lunatic fringe of the movement. That is patently not true. There is error in this movement that sweeps through the entire movement. As heard today in the Q&A, 90% in the Pentecostal movement take ownership of the prosperity gospel. 24 million of them deny the Trinity. 100 million are Roman Catholics. Do the math. This is not some fringe. This is the movement. And it is growing at a rapid rate.”
Phil Johnson, responding to the question of these stats on the Dr. Michael Brown show said they came from a 2006 Pew Research Study. I scanned the entire study. A survey of 10 countries in Africa. Check page 30 for the question that was asked of people to get this answer. Also note that Jehovah’s Witnesses were included in Charismatic category.
My point is, a sweeping condemnation of charismatics was made on the basis of this survey.
That is just one of several of my non-biblical issues with the conference. Statements made about charismatics having no social programs, “Where are the charismatic hospitals?” was MacArthur’s question. I was so stunned by this claim, I hardly know where to begin. Orphanages, leprosy hospitals, rescue missions, food and aid organizations….the list is so endless it’s ridiculous.
And when Phil Johnson was asked to defend that statement, he again completely agreed. Claiming that the charismatic televangelists did not support/start such ministries and as they are representative of the whole of the charismatic movement, therefore the statement is true.
These are just the tip of the iceberg.
Thank you again for taking this on. Blessings!
Looking forward to your timely commentary regarding this important matter. Grace to you!
you were very articulate in your writing, and it have taught me how to respond with my brothers and sisters in the body of Christ when I’m blogging. thanks.
I fear that some of the “sola scriptura” purists are as guilty of playing to the gallery of their own fanclubs as any of the charismatic showmen they denounce – they just do it with more gravitas
Wow! What a powerful statement.
Once a person believes that they have the ‘corner of of the market’ in regards to who God is and what He can do, they lose their space of influence. No man is an authority on who God is especially on this side of life; everyone has only a part of the knowledge of who and what God is and we must always remain humble in that understanding – always. In regards to John MacArthur, it is fair to say that it is more a case of a personal dislike based on the exponentiation of various questionable charismatic practices in recent times (as well as in the past) but inadvertently no aspect of modern Christianity has been free of questionable and heretic controversy even from the most intellectually elite theologians today. As long as it is a human being behind it, we have to prepare ourselves for some level of failing or weakness in one area or the other that is why it is grace of God not the efforts of man that is needed to live the life of a believer here on earth.
Looking forward to the week’s read. I have since moved on from the charismatic circles, but my past experience left some of the best memories of personal healing and witnessing of God’s power and LOVE for His body. It seemed that it just started to become, like everything else, more gimmick than true spiritual power. Not in all cases, but many. Hoping that your writings will help me to speak to those who denounce it on the basis of doctrine and what I believe is their own fear, horrible experience, and misunderstanding. Thank you.
There was a time in the mid-nineties that I eagerly listened to MacArthur broadcasts here in South Africa. But his Chaos book was one of a number of works/persons that so influenced the pastor of a vibrant congregation we were part of in 1999/2000, that she destroyed the congregation with one single sermon. One of her statements was that divine healings no longer occur – and that in a congregation where the spiritual gifts were operating to such an extent that it drew people to the meetings in growing numbers.
Gerrie, I find it interesting that this female pastor would take the work of MacArthur seriously at all. Was she aware of his position on women preachers?
Thanks,
Frank! Sometimes, in certain arenas, silence is taken for confirmation, if not compliance and folks adapt views because nobody stood up and said-“wait a minute, here…”
Sad that some people want to set limits for God and keep Him at the mental level. The Word without the Spirit creates dry bones. Attempting to follow the Spirit without the Word can lead to deception. We all need balance.
I just love your statement, Steve. I seem to spend much of my time lately trying to bring that kind of sane balance you have pointed out – in my mentoring of people, general counsel, blogs, etc. If its not one extreme well-meaning folks are going to, it’s the other. On the one hand legalism, on the other hand libertinism. Yes indeed, we all need that balance of which you write. Old Prof. Maxwell of Prairie Bible Institute said many, many years ago: “The hardest thing in the world is to keep balanced!”
Blessings, and thanks also to Frank as he seeks to bring this balance to the Church at large today.