Frank Viola is a best-selling author, blogger, speaker, and consultant to authors and writers. His mission is to help serious followers of Jesus know their Lord more deeply so they can experience real transformation and make a lasting impact. To learn more about Frank and his work, go to 15+ Years of Projects. To invite Frank to speak at your event, go to his Speaking Page. Due to a new problem with persistent spam that we haven’t figured out how to control, comments are closed for the present time. To contact Frank, use the “Contact” page in the top menu.
Thanks for the affirmation that I’m on the right track. I’ve been restless and aching for fellowship with others who long to live together in “purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ.”
Bill Otis
Thanks so much Frank for sharing “marks of a pioneer” by Toni Imsen. Continue to do what you do in encouraging the body of Christ.
Dustin
Any recommendations for someone in a setting where the small number of local Christians follow the traditional/mega-church model? I am attending a weekly Sunday service and trying to make the best out of the small group time, but I find that my thinking and expectations are on a completely different plane than the larger group. My spiritual mind has been stretched, and now I can’t fit into the forms of contemporary worship styles. Should I be at peace and adopt a thankful attitude for what’s available? Because it’s crucial to have fellowship with other Christians, I have declined to pioneer into the wilderness alone. Thanks for any advice. I greatly appreciate your speaking to this topic.
May the Lord bless that mega church guy with wisdom and courage, and especially, with a place to be a brother among brothers.
Lori Bryant
Thanks for the blog today Frank. And thank you Toni for your wonderful insight! I love my pioneer friends who pave the way for other ways to do church, be the body and demonstrate Jesus!
God uses “pioneers” as special tools in His hand. Like a mechanic uses special tools for certain projects where nothing else works, so does God. I heard a missionary peer say that church planting missionaries were like “plows” that God used to break up the hard ground. These “plows” were not a good tool for cultivating or harvest, but they sure could break ground better than others.
Sometimes I think we have a hard time recognizing the special tools God uses.
Tim Kurtz
Great article Frank. We are transitioning our ‘traditional church’ into a more organic model. It is a difficult journey, as traditional mindsets are hard to break. We are beginning to see the light at the end of the religious tunnel. I constantly remind those who fellowship with us that we are pioneering church. Rather than resigning, I am working to transition. It can at times be frustrating and disappointing, but I believe that if I have led them for over 20 years in an incorrect system, I must pour my life into them to help them move into a church that glorifies the Lord! Thanks again, Frank for an encouraging article.
Pedro Cohen
How would you go about this, Frank.
In Jesus’ days he and his disciples “attended temple” weekly. We are offered a new way of doing Church and you expound a lot in all your books and I agree with what you gotta say. However, why do you think going to the temple was okay then and now it is kindda not, due to the reasons you wrote with Barna. I guess I am asking… how can I tell church goers that church done today is not the same as before.
Jesus followed all the Jewish rituals. That was pre-Pentecost. Where and how the early church met (the church in Jerusalem met in the Temple Courts for a time, which was a big open space with a roof to accommodate the multitudes) is another story. I address this in “Reimagining Church” in detail.
Aaron
I’m curious, what’s the source on the “1500-2000 pastors leaving” stat? Not saying it’s wrong, just wondering…
Many different studies have shown this. Sources are listed in “Pagan Christianity” https://www.frankviola.org/books. You can do a search online and find some of these studies.
Jamal Jivanjee
Pioneers have accusers and naysayers come out of expected and unexpected places”. You must be reading my mail:) Thanks for the encouragment Frank.
I think I understood when you say, “Pioneers are actually a rare breed.” I don’t think of myself as a pioneer in any sense of the word. However, I do seem to think things differently a little ahead of my peers. Your ministry, Frank, has been invaluable to equip for good works among those who are around me.
Right. A pioneer breaks new ground. But those who follow their lead and are influenced by them experience similar repercussions, both good and bad. Thanks for the kind words!
Steve Orr
Frank,
I’m a “preaching Elder” at a very, very small church and I’ve been participating in the “subversion” in my own small way. We meet in a log cabin on Sunday morning where member’s are encouraged to “raise their hand” anytime to give a praise report, a prayer request, a teaching or to ask a question during the “main” teaching. We have a very strong small group ethic and members get together often during the week. When I hold up one of your books and read a passage from it out loud there’s this silent inspiration that comes from clear teaching followed by verbal amens. People come up to me asking, “What was that book again?” I just hand it to them. So here’s a big thanks for helping me out with your books. I’m sure they have impact far beyond what you are aware of so keep up the good work.
Fred
I read Pagan Christianity (not all the way through, though), and I agree with a lot of it. And, the Sunday-go-to-meetin’ thing as LAW is questionable, falling into what I consider a Pharisaical view of church. The Megachurch thing has its obvious drawbacks. But, are you saying generally that going to church is WRONG, or immoral? To the extent that my studies have informed me accurately, the early believers (like those in Acts 2) still honored the Sabbath in some way, and met daily. The Sunday replacement of Shabbat is clearly non-scriptural…and I credit the Greeks and the “tipping” of the Body to a majority Gentile membership (w/leaders, too) with the loss of our Jewish base (the Bible that Jesus used). It’s been dominated by Greek oratory, instead of belonging to a People, with rights and privileges. But, to condemn believers wholesale for going to church is not part of my view. I think we should go to give, rather than to always receive. What do you think?
Hu? Who said anything about immorality … I don’t see that anywhere in the conversation and am not sure where that question came from.
Slander, lying about others, judging the motives of others, and prostitution are immoral.
I don’t know anyone who “condemns people” for “going to church,” even if those churches they attend aren’t biblical or based in Scripture. You must have us confused with another blog. The 3 points made in the blog have nothing to do with morality or immorality. Just confused I guess.
J Moses
Your comment about the change of the Sabbath is right on. The transition from the seventh day to the first day of the week is so unbiblical, and the story is all over early and medieval Church History. But most Christian leaders have found ‘biblical’ reasons to hide the reality. Ask any Catholic, and they will tell you that Protestants don’t protest the change of the Sabbath by the Catholics.
True, and sad, we may be practicing pagan Christianity!
Phil Hawkins
Frank, I remember reading one of your old messages you posted on your blog a few years ago, based on the passage in Hebrews, “He takes away the first, that He might establish the second.” For me, while some things look dark, it is encouraging to remember that the divine housecleaning is still going on. We only see part of it, but He sees the whole picture and the intended result.
As a Christian Counselor and Grief Recovery Specialist I have become dismayed at the number of my pastor patients whom are battered and bruised from the flack they are enduring with their congregations. People in the pews expect their pastors to see all, be all, bless all and be the spokesperson of God to all the other sinners in the community. This abdication of so-called Christians seems to mark the world of denominational church empires. In the community I live in, I too have become discouraged by not finding a church or body or any group wanting to grow in Christ together. We have even considered moving to be close to or around such a people.
I might add that professionally I am encountering pastors that are so frustrated that they have/are considering suicide as a way out of the mess they are in.
Your blog today has helped me personally and will help many of my patients….God bless you Frank!
Jesus Manifesto is one of my favorites, just in case you were wondering : )
I believe it’s possible to do both.
We can “do church” in a more traditional model and really care about making disciples who are living on mission fulfilling God’s eternal purposes. Transformation by The Holy Spirit and reconciliation with God and others can be achieved through people gathering together on Sunday’s singing and learning together, sharing stories, etc. It can’t stop there and every pastor would agree with this… but that’s where the evaluation of models, philosophies, and methods come into play. Reducing the Kingdom to a quick prayer and achieving salvation for heaven someday is part and parcel with our institutional churches and mega church models of evangelism/discipleship. But, I don’t think it’s entirely fair to lump everyone into one category of traditional church and organic church. I pastor a church that meets regularly on Sunday’s, we sit in rows (more like a semi-circle), we sing songs, we preach sermons, we tell stories, we engage Jesus through the sacraments, and we live on mission as a family to each other and our communities.
I don’t have all the answers, but I’m trying my best to follow Jesus, hear from the Holy Spirit on how to best lead a church and disciple people without getting all jammed up on how the church will pay it’s bills if we don’t grow numerically by having Christians leave their church because we “do church” better than the others : )
I’d love to hear more about churches successfully doing this!
As I wrote in 2011, the odd thing about this is that most every traveling teacher and author I know doesn’t attend a traditional church . . . mostly out of boredom with the “church service” . . . even though they will preach in traditional churches when invited (as I myself do).
While I think this is true, most will never admit it other than to a select few- if that. The structure is set up in such a way that the itinerant finds it difficult to be completely honest. Often the first question asked before being allowed to speak somewhere is, “Where do you go to church?” We all know what the “wrong” answers are. On a number of occasions as a traveling musician I was even asked to “stay and be a part of the body here for awhile” before they would consider having me sing. Not only do they want you to be attending a traditional home church every Sunday (a little hard to do when you’re itinerant!) but some even want their church to be your “home church” before allowing you to speak/sing. Being honest WILL cost you, and that’s why so many never really say what they believe concerning these things. For anyone who has devoted their life to living out the call of God and are trying to do so within the current system the pressure and cost of obedience is very high and often gut wrenching when it comes to finally living out what you truly believe.
Alas, I still believe in the local church, no matter what form it takes, whether home churches (we’ve done that & planted that), small congregations, highly traditional churches, charismatic churches, or large megachurches. I’ve joyfully found Jesus in all venues. Not to be a dissenter, but just to say there is no perfect church, and we must find a way to be faithful in whatever context Jesus places us.
Typically, people gravitate to the form of church that suits their own personalities. You are right in that wherever God’s people gather, there’s a measure of the Lord there. But that doesn’t mean the institutional church hasn’t been coopted by contemporary culture and that all forms are equally pleasing to His heart or express His fullness. There is no perfect church. Correct. But there are no perfect Christians either. And that doesn’t mean the way a believer lives doesn’t matter to Him.
The problem in this recent conversation is two fold. 1. So many people think it’s something new and aren’t aware of the groundwork that’s already been laid on it. I hope that changes with posts like this one and others like it. 2. when someone steps out of the “institutional form of church,” they are often attacked or maligned for scrapping “the local church” and being “unbiblical.” Neither is true. The institutional church doesn’t = the local assembly.
The Anabaptists who left both Catholic and Protestant forms of the religious institution were systematically slaughtered for following their conscience with respect to what they believed the NT teaches about church. For that reason, the book I wrote with Barna in 2008 is glowingly dedicated to them. I’m not postchurch either (which means “church just happens”) as I believe in face to face community that’s local, tangible, visible, and visit-able, and without it, the Christian life doesn’t work too well. But that doesn’t require a modern pastor who preaches sermons to the same passive congregation weekly, no more than it was required of the early Christians who didn’t have that this at all. That model came with the Reformation and was borrowed straight from the RCC.
I’m interested to see where this all goes and if there’s a re-awakening on the matter among God’s people. Thx. for the comment.
vineman
it’s interesting that you brought up the Anabaptists. I am a full-time pastor who is currently journeying out of a mainline denomination and into the Mennonite Church. As someone who was ordained into a Christendom model, I have always been somewhat of a maverick/pioneer for missional community but the pushback has me seeking another vineyard in which to cultivate the Kingdom. I see my church which once was a missional movement seeking to revert back into Christendom in the wake of the “cultural threats” the church now faces. In later years, I have often lamented that I did not stay in my secular career in order to be a tent-maker in ministry. Still, when my call came, that option was not much of an option in my mainline tribe. Now I find myself too far down the road of full-time ministry to turn back (30 years out of college) but also – to be honest – my call into full-time ministry has blessed me and the three churches I pastored beyond anything I could have dreamed or imagined. I am grateful for this call. So now as Christendom takes its last gasps, I am gaining clarity on my call to work with the Anabaptist tribe and take an existing church, (perhaps even comfortable in Christendom) further into the Kingdom fruitfulness that Jesus calls us to – to use a big church with a big building as a launching post for starting house churches and missional communities and justice outposts. If I don’t get to enter the promised land, at least I can prepare the next generation. Thanks, with your mention, for the further clarification that I am on the right path.
Very encouraging post, Frank. I love the marks of a pioneer. So, good! It also reminds me of a song by Nancy Honeytree called “Pioneer” that may encourage you as well. I can’t link to it here, but you can look it up on YouTube. It has similar thougths.
Also encouraging about these leaders who are coming out of the “system”. We need to pray for them now that the second part of the work will be done in them, that the system will come out of them. As you know, that usually takes a “wilderness” which can be especially difficult when one has been in such a position of prominence and influence. May God give them a clear vision of the “city whose builder and maker is God” that they do not lose heart.
Thanks for pioneering as you have!
David
My first thoughts, having come out of vocational ministry and leaving the institutional/traditional church setting in 2006, is to pray for all of our brothers and sisters coming out of the “system”. How painful the process can be, but how beautiful the rejoicing along the way as we see the indwelling Christ come alive in ekklesia!
When it comes to feeling stuck in religion and ritual, it is enlightening to realize that frustration is useful to ‘seeing’ the bondage of a system! How wonderful to finally grasp that uninhibited and unhindered relationship has always been His divine eternal intention. Frank, your books were a God-send back in 2007, when we got free of our Holy Spirit inspired frustration and began to realize Jesus’ headship and wondrous body relationship! This latest post is ongoing encouragement. May the mega pastor fully step into the explosive freedom God is stirring in him! What a risk! What a joy!
i really enjoyed Don’s posts and also didn’t quite get what so many of his detractors were saying. but a fan of the body and of the bride and of the church being God’s people gathered to do God’s stuff and if everyone who met at the traditional sunday meetings was doing all of that stuff then we would be making less of a big deal about it i think but the truth is that the majority of people are not – stuck in religiosity and tradition we are missing the call of Jesus to be making disciples and to be forgiving everyone and reaching out to the least of these and being salt and light and the fragrance of Christ to the world [not removed from the world]
Still very evangelical-mindset thinking steeped in D.L. Moody’s legacy. The issue is God’s Eternal Purpose which has been completely lost today and the masses don’t even care to know what it is.
It’s not about traditional churches doing the traditional forms of “discipleship making,” etc. Just challenging the comment a bit. 😉
Charles & Linda White
Bro. Frank Your Teaching ON God’s Eternal Purpose Is so Wonderful
& Much needed for Body Of Christ today In America & as a Whole.
It Helps me To go back & relisten several times A Year.
Also The Word ( CHURCH) is used so Much Loosely We need A More Complete Teaching on The Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST… Thanks Frank & Question? do you Have Cd’s we can Give Away or is it Best to Burn On PC?
I believe many hear the Lord’s wooing whisper but don’t know what to do, because they’ve been indoctrinated with the idea that the institutional church is the only way to “do” church. But, as both the pastor and blogger prove, God loves to respond to hungry hearts. Because it really upsets most of the brothers and sisters I know in the IC, I struggle to share with them the freedom of stepping off that well-trampled path onto the one “less traveled.” It looks to others like a wrong turn but actually opens onto far greater, more expansive vistas of Christ and His ekklesia.
Vinny
very encouraging Frank !
Most pioneers in Christ fly way below the radar but their impact goes deep into the eternals. Keep it up Saints 😀
Charles Wood
Keep pioneering and “soldier on”.
Jo
I must say, when I look on friends’ pages and see photos of “church”-services, for one or other reason I almsost feel sick to the stomach. Maybe because my spirit knows that this is not how it i supposed to be. I am so disillusioned by church that I rather stay at home and just meet with our little group of friends who share a love for Jesus and a deep desire to find Him in the most unusual places. Thank you for your blog, thank you for stepping out, speaking out and bringing revelation. God bless you.
Frank, love your pioneering attributes. Your book is subversive. I mean that as a compliment. As someone in the local church, I have seen the same reaction’s to Don’s posts. The theology is a high mind, but people get very hot when they encounter threats to their livelihoods. As our mutual friend Sweet once told me, the priesthood of all believers is the one tenet of the Reformation that didn’t take.
Len. yes, the priesthood of all believers only took with respect to the horizontal relationship to God on the individual level. But the corporate dimension didn’t take. That said, I think there’s a lot of confusion about the term “local church.” What Don and others is describing is the *institutional church.*
That’s something different from the local assembly. There are millions of Christians who are part of local expressions of the body of Christ, but they aren’t institutional churches. I’ve written on this before, but it didn’t “take” . . . so I’m going to tackled it again next week. 😉
Maureen Fryer
Words cannot convey how blessed and moved I am today by this post from Toni Ibsen about pioneers….it was a word given to me early in my Christian walk and has been a source of great comfort at other strategic and trying times…ever thankful for you Frank…
Steve Cornell
Read PC back in 2005-the original version! The traditional/megachurch is so balkanized that one hand does not know what the other is doing! Those that treasure the Unity of the Body become labeled as heretics…The price of being a visionary…
Harold Ce Santeliz
Thank you very much for your articles, God bless you, i’ve learned a lot and have been structured and stengthened by these articles, this is my first comment, and i just wanna say, may the Lord bless you.
I read Pagan Christianity a few years ago, and also Reimagining Church. I still use them and have encouraged others to read them. They are valuable and have certainly answered important questions I had.
Phyllis Hopper
Thanks for the affirmation that I’m on the right track. I’ve been restless and aching for fellowship with others who long to live together in “purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ.”
Bill Otis
Thanks so much Frank for sharing “marks of a pioneer” by Toni Imsen. Continue to do what you do in encouraging the body of Christ.
Dustin
Any recommendations for someone in a setting where the small number of local Christians follow the traditional/mega-church model? I am attending a weekly Sunday service and trying to make the best out of the small group time, but I find that my thinking and expectations are on a completely different plane than the larger group. My spiritual mind has been stretched, and now I can’t fit into the forms of contemporary worship styles. Should I be at peace and adopt a thankful attitude for what’s available? Because it’s crucial to have fellowship with other Christians, I have declined to pioneer into the wilderness alone. Thanks for any advice. I greatly appreciate your speaking to this topic.
Frank Viola
Dustin: See my answer to the July questions at https://www.frankviola.org/faq
Angela
May the Lord bless that mega church guy with wisdom and courage, and especially, with a place to be a brother among brothers.
Lori Bryant
Thanks for the blog today Frank. And thank you Toni for your wonderful insight! I love my pioneer friends who pave the way for other ways to do church, be the body and demonstrate Jesus!
Kelly E McClelland
God uses “pioneers” as special tools in His hand. Like a mechanic uses special tools for certain projects where nothing else works, so does God. I heard a missionary peer say that church planting missionaries were like “plows” that God used to break up the hard ground. These “plows” were not a good tool for cultivating or harvest, but they sure could break ground better than others.
Sometimes I think we have a hard time recognizing the special tools God uses.
Tim Kurtz
Great article Frank. We are transitioning our ‘traditional church’ into a more organic model. It is a difficult journey, as traditional mindsets are hard to break. We are beginning to see the light at the end of the religious tunnel. I constantly remind those who fellowship with us that we are pioneering church. Rather than resigning, I am working to transition. It can at times be frustrating and disappointing, but I believe that if I have led them for over 20 years in an incorrect system, I must pour my life into them to help them move into a church that glorifies the Lord! Thanks again, Frank for an encouraging article.
Pedro Cohen
How would you go about this, Frank.
In Jesus’ days he and his disciples “attended temple” weekly. We are offered a new way of doing Church and you expound a lot in all your books and I agree with what you gotta say. However, why do you think going to the temple was okay then and now it is kindda not, due to the reasons you wrote with Barna. I guess I am asking… how can I tell church goers that church done today is not the same as before.
Frank Viola
Jesus followed all the Jewish rituals. That was pre-Pentecost. Where and how the early church met (the church in Jerusalem met in the Temple Courts for a time, which was a big open space with a roof to accommodate the multitudes) is another story. I address this in “Reimagining Church” in detail.
Aaron
I’m curious, what’s the source on the “1500-2000 pastors leaving” stat? Not saying it’s wrong, just wondering…
Frank Viola
Many different studies have shown this. Sources are listed in “Pagan Christianity” https://www.frankviola.org/books. You can do a search online and find some of these studies.
Jamal Jivanjee
Pioneers have accusers and naysayers come out of expected and unexpected places”. You must be reading my mail:) Thanks for the encouragment Frank.
Frank Viola
True pioneers are actually rare breeds. But those who follow and who are influenced by pioneers share much the same fate.
D. E. Davis
I think I understood when you say, “Pioneers are actually a rare breed.” I don’t think of myself as a pioneer in any sense of the word. However, I do seem to think things differently a little ahead of my peers. Your ministry, Frank, has been invaluable to equip for good works among those who are around me.
Frank Viola
Right. A pioneer breaks new ground. But those who follow their lead and are influenced by them experience similar repercussions, both good and bad. Thanks for the kind words!
Steve Orr
Frank,
I’m a “preaching Elder” at a very, very small church and I’ve been participating in the “subversion” in my own small way. We meet in a log cabin on Sunday morning where member’s are encouraged to “raise their hand” anytime to give a praise report, a prayer request, a teaching or to ask a question during the “main” teaching. We have a very strong small group ethic and members get together often during the week. When I hold up one of your books and read a passage from it out loud there’s this silent inspiration that comes from clear teaching followed by verbal amens. People come up to me asking, “What was that book again?” I just hand it to them. So here’s a big thanks for helping me out with your books. I’m sure they have impact far beyond what you are aware of so keep up the good work.
Fred
I read Pagan Christianity (not all the way through, though), and I agree with a lot of it. And, the Sunday-go-to-meetin’ thing as LAW is questionable, falling into what I consider a Pharisaical view of church. The Megachurch thing has its obvious drawbacks. But, are you saying generally that going to church is WRONG, or immoral? To the extent that my studies have informed me accurately, the early believers (like those in Acts 2) still honored the Sabbath in some way, and met daily. The Sunday replacement of Shabbat is clearly non-scriptural…and I credit the Greeks and the “tipping” of the Body to a majority Gentile membership (w/leaders, too) with the loss of our Jewish base (the Bible that Jesus used). It’s been dominated by Greek oratory, instead of belonging to a People, with rights and privileges. But, to condemn believers wholesale for going to church is not part of my view. I think we should go to give, rather than to always receive. What do you think?
Frank Viola
Hu? Who said anything about immorality … I don’t see that anywhere in the conversation and am not sure where that question came from.
Slander, lying about others, judging the motives of others, and prostitution are immoral.
I don’t know anyone who “condemns people” for “going to church,” even if those churches they attend aren’t biblical or based in Scripture. You must have us confused with another blog. The 3 points made in the blog have nothing to do with morality or immorality. Just confused I guess.
J Moses
Your comment about the change of the Sabbath is right on. The transition from the seventh day to the first day of the week is so unbiblical, and the story is all over early and medieval Church History. But most Christian leaders have found ‘biblical’ reasons to hide the reality. Ask any Catholic, and they will tell you that Protestants don’t protest the change of the Sabbath by the Catholics.
True, and sad, we may be practicing pagan Christianity!
Phil Hawkins
Frank, I remember reading one of your old messages you posted on your blog a few years ago, based on the passage in Hebrews, “He takes away the first, that He might establish the second.” For me, while some things look dark, it is encouraging to remember that the divine housecleaning is still going on. We only see part of it, but He sees the whole picture and the intended result.
Frank Viola
Thanks! That whole message is now in “Revise Us Again”. https://www.frankviola.org/books/#book3
Thomas Mullins
As a Christian Counselor and Grief Recovery Specialist I have become dismayed at the number of my pastor patients whom are battered and bruised from the flack they are enduring with their congregations. People in the pews expect their pastors to see all, be all, bless all and be the spokesperson of God to all the other sinners in the community. This abdication of so-called Christians seems to mark the world of denominational church empires. In the community I live in, I too have become discouraged by not finding a church or body or any group wanting to grow in Christ together. We have even considered moving to be close to or around such a people.
I might add that professionally I am encountering pastors that are so frustrated that they have/are considering suicide as a way out of the mess they are in.
Your blog today has helped me personally and will help many of my patients….God bless you Frank!
Frank Viola
Thanks. I feel for pastors, and that’s why I’ve written so much to encourage them.
Tony Simoncini
Frank,
Jesus Manifesto is one of my favorites, just in case you were wondering : )
I believe it’s possible to do both.
We can “do church” in a more traditional model and really care about making disciples who are living on mission fulfilling God’s eternal purposes. Transformation by The Holy Spirit and reconciliation with God and others can be achieved through people gathering together on Sunday’s singing and learning together, sharing stories, etc. It can’t stop there and every pastor would agree with this… but that’s where the evaluation of models, philosophies, and methods come into play. Reducing the Kingdom to a quick prayer and achieving salvation for heaven someday is part and parcel with our institutional churches and mega church models of evangelism/discipleship. But, I don’t think it’s entirely fair to lump everyone into one category of traditional church and organic church. I pastor a church that meets regularly on Sunday’s, we sit in rows (more like a semi-circle), we sing songs, we preach sermons, we tell stories, we engage Jesus through the sacraments, and we live on mission as a family to each other and our communities.
I don’t have all the answers, but I’m trying my best to follow Jesus, hear from the Holy Spirit on how to best lead a church and disciple people without getting all jammed up on how the church will pay it’s bills if we don’t grow numerically by having Christians leave their church because we “do church” better than the others : )
I’d love to hear more about churches successfully doing this!
Peace
Frank Viola
Glad you like Jesus Manifesto. I’m glad.
Mike Helms
I found this very interesting…
As I wrote in 2011, the odd thing about this is that most every traveling teacher and author I know doesn’t attend a traditional church . . . mostly out of boredom with the “church service” . . . even though they will preach in traditional churches when invited (as I myself do).
While I think this is true, most will never admit it other than to a select few- if that. The structure is set up in such a way that the itinerant finds it difficult to be completely honest. Often the first question asked before being allowed to speak somewhere is, “Where do you go to church?” We all know what the “wrong” answers are. On a number of occasions as a traveling musician I was even asked to “stay and be a part of the body here for awhile” before they would consider having me sing. Not only do they want you to be attending a traditional home church every Sunday (a little hard to do when you’re itinerant!) but some even want their church to be your “home church” before allowing you to speak/sing. Being honest WILL cost you, and that’s why so many never really say what they believe concerning these things. For anyone who has devoted their life to living out the call of God and are trying to do so within the current system the pressure and cost of obedience is very high and often gut wrenching when it comes to finally living out what you truly believe.
Mary DeMuth (@MaryDeMuth)
Alas, I still believe in the local church, no matter what form it takes, whether home churches (we’ve done that & planted that), small congregations, highly traditional churches, charismatic churches, or large megachurches. I’ve joyfully found Jesus in all venues. Not to be a dissenter, but just to say there is no perfect church, and we must find a way to be faithful in whatever context Jesus places us.
Frank Viola
Typically, people gravitate to the form of church that suits their own personalities. You are right in that wherever God’s people gather, there’s a measure of the Lord there. But that doesn’t mean the institutional church hasn’t been coopted by contemporary culture and that all forms are equally pleasing to His heart or express His fullness. There is no perfect church. Correct. But there are no perfect Christians either. And that doesn’t mean the way a believer lives doesn’t matter to Him.
The problem in this recent conversation is two fold. 1. So many people think it’s something new and aren’t aware of the groundwork that’s already been laid on it. I hope that changes with posts like this one and others like it. 2. when someone steps out of the “institutional form of church,” they are often attacked or maligned for scrapping “the local church” and being “unbiblical.” Neither is true. The institutional church doesn’t = the local assembly.
The Anabaptists who left both Catholic and Protestant forms of the religious institution were systematically slaughtered for following their conscience with respect to what they believed the NT teaches about church. For that reason, the book I wrote with Barna in 2008 is glowingly dedicated to them. I’m not postchurch either (which means “church just happens”) as I believe in face to face community that’s local, tangible, visible, and visit-able, and without it, the Christian life doesn’t work too well. But that doesn’t require a modern pastor who preaches sermons to the same passive congregation weekly, no more than it was required of the early Christians who didn’t have that this at all. That model came with the Reformation and was borrowed straight from the RCC.
I’m interested to see where this all goes and if there’s a re-awakening on the matter among God’s people. Thx. for the comment.
vineman
it’s interesting that you brought up the Anabaptists. I am a full-time pastor who is currently journeying out of a mainline denomination and into the Mennonite Church. As someone who was ordained into a Christendom model, I have always been somewhat of a maverick/pioneer for missional community but the pushback has me seeking another vineyard in which to cultivate the Kingdom. I see my church which once was a missional movement seeking to revert back into Christendom in the wake of the “cultural threats” the church now faces. In later years, I have often lamented that I did not stay in my secular career in order to be a tent-maker in ministry. Still, when my call came, that option was not much of an option in my mainline tribe. Now I find myself too far down the road of full-time ministry to turn back (30 years out of college) but also – to be honest – my call into full-time ministry has blessed me and the three churches I pastored beyond anything I could have dreamed or imagined. I am grateful for this call. So now as Christendom takes its last gasps, I am gaining clarity on my call to work with the Anabaptist tribe and take an existing church, (perhaps even comfortable in Christendom) further into the Kingdom fruitfulness that Jesus calls us to – to use a big church with a big building as a launching post for starting house churches and missional communities and justice outposts. If I don’t get to enter the promised land, at least I can prepare the next generation. Thanks, with your mention, for the further clarification that I am on the right path.
Frank Viola
I hope you read this title, it will spare you many years of agony and frustration: https://www.frankviola.org/books/#book5
David Bolton
Very encouraging post, Frank. I love the marks of a pioneer. So, good! It also reminds me of a song by Nancy Honeytree called “Pioneer” that may encourage you as well. I can’t link to it here, but you can look it up on YouTube. It has similar thougths.
Also encouraging about these leaders who are coming out of the “system”. We need to pray for them now that the second part of the work will be done in them, that the system will come out of them. As you know, that usually takes a “wilderness” which can be especially difficult when one has been in such a position of prominence and influence. May God give them a clear vision of the “city whose builder and maker is God” that they do not lose heart.
Thanks for pioneering as you have!
David
My first thoughts, having come out of vocational ministry and leaving the institutional/traditional church setting in 2006, is to pray for all of our brothers and sisters coming out of the “system”. How painful the process can be, but how beautiful the rejoicing along the way as we see the indwelling Christ come alive in ekklesia!
Nancy Teague
When it comes to feeling stuck in religion and ritual, it is enlightening to realize that frustration is useful to ‘seeing’ the bondage of a system! How wonderful to finally grasp that uninhibited and unhindered relationship has always been His divine eternal intention. Frank, your books were a God-send back in 2007, when we got free of our Holy Spirit inspired frustration and began to realize Jesus’ headship and wondrous body relationship! This latest post is ongoing encouragement. May the mega pastor fully step into the explosive freedom God is stirring in him! What a risk! What a joy!
brett Fish anderson
i really enjoyed Don’s posts and also didn’t quite get what so many of his detractors were saying. but a fan of the body and of the bride and of the church being God’s people gathered to do God’s stuff and if everyone who met at the traditional sunday meetings was doing all of that stuff then we would be making less of a big deal about it i think but the truth is that the majority of people are not – stuck in religiosity and tradition we are missing the call of Jesus to be making disciples and to be forgiving everyone and reaching out to the least of these and being salt and light and the fragrance of Christ to the world [not removed from the world]
strength in Him
love brett fish
Frank Viola
Still very evangelical-mindset thinking steeped in D.L. Moody’s legacy. The issue is God’s Eternal Purpose which has been completely lost today and the masses don’t even care to know what it is.
It’s not about traditional churches doing the traditional forms of “discipleship making,” etc. Just challenging the comment a bit. 😉
Charles & Linda White
Bro. Frank Your Teaching ON God’s Eternal Purpose Is so Wonderful
& Much needed for Body Of Christ today In America & as a Whole.
It Helps me To go back & relisten several times A Year.
Also The Word ( CHURCH) is used so Much Loosely We need A More Complete Teaching on The Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST… Thanks Frank & Question? do you Have Cd’s we can Give Away or is it Best to Burn On PC?
Frank Viola
Sure. Or better, just give them the podcast link and they can have access to all the episodes: https://www.frankviola.org/podcast
CatherineS
I believe many hear the Lord’s wooing whisper but don’t know what to do, because they’ve been indoctrinated with the idea that the institutional church is the only way to “do” church. But, as both the pastor and blogger prove, God loves to respond to hungry hearts. Because it really upsets most of the brothers and sisters I know in the IC, I struggle to share with them the freedom of stepping off that well-trampled path onto the one “less traveled.” It looks to others like a wrong turn but actually opens onto far greater, more expansive vistas of Christ and His ekklesia.
Vinny
very encouraging Frank !
Most pioneers in Christ fly way below the radar but their impact goes deep into the eternals. Keep it up Saints 😀
Charles Wood
Keep pioneering and “soldier on”.
Jo
I must say, when I look on friends’ pages and see photos of “church”-services, for one or other reason I almsost feel sick to the stomach. Maybe because my spirit knows that this is not how it i supposed to be. I am so disillusioned by church that I rather stay at home and just meet with our little group of friends who share a love for Jesus and a deep desire to find Him in the most unusual places. Thank you for your blog, thank you for stepping out, speaking out and bringing revelation. God bless you.
Len Wilson
Frank, love your pioneering attributes. Your book is subversive. I mean that as a compliment. As someone in the local church, I have seen the same reaction’s to Don’s posts. The theology is a high mind, but people get very hot when they encounter threats to their livelihoods. As our mutual friend Sweet once told me, the priesthood of all believers is the one tenet of the Reformation that didn’t take.
Frank Viola
Len. yes, the priesthood of all believers only took with respect to the horizontal relationship to God on the individual level. But the corporate dimension didn’t take. That said, I think there’s a lot of confusion about the term “local church.” What Don and others is describing is the *institutional church.*
That’s something different from the local assembly. There are millions of Christians who are part of local expressions of the body of Christ, but they aren’t institutional churches. I’ve written on this before, but it didn’t “take” . . . so I’m going to tackled it again next week. 😉
Maureen Fryer
Words cannot convey how blessed and moved I am today by this post from Toni Ibsen about pioneers….it was a word given to me early in my Christian walk and has been a source of great comfort at other strategic and trying times…ever thankful for you Frank…
Steve Cornell
Read PC back in 2005-the original version! The traditional/megachurch is so balkanized that one hand does not know what the other is doing! Those that treasure the Unity of the Body become labeled as heretics…The price of being a visionary…
Harold Ce Santeliz
Thank you very much for your articles, God bless you, i’ve learned a lot and have been structured and stengthened by these articles, this is my first comment, and i just wanna say, may the Lord bless you.
Gerrie Malan
I read Pagan Christianity a few years ago, and also Reimagining Church. I still use them and have encouraged others to read them. They are valuable and have certainly answered important questions I had.