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Frank Viola | Beyond Evangelical
Official Blog of Author & Speaker Frank Viola. Digging below the surface and moving beyond the shallows in today's Christianity.
A Priceless Story: D.L. Moody & the Plymouth Brethren
Q & A on REIMAGINING CHURCH
Well put. It is a problematic position to take but if we are faithful to the Word we have no other choice.
Jennifer: I appreciate your kind words. It’s difficult standing in the place of despising sectarianism, elitism, and exclusivism on the one hand, and at the same time, not budging from what Jesus and the apostles taught regarding how His church should function.
When you take the former stance, those who are exclusive accuse you of being soft and compromising. (e.g.: I caught a lot of flack from such folks when I decided to write a book with Leonard Sweet and we had endorsements from many pastors.)
When you take the latter stance, you’re accused of being divisive by those who don’t understand the paradigm you’re setting forth and filter and reinterpret it. So holding to both is one of those “narrow paths.”
My heart is and has been for many years God’s Eternal Purpose. That’s the transcending theme that brings those two stances together.
Thank you again for encouraging me today. I needed it.
Blessings,
fv
Psalm 115:1
Wonderful post! Your book Reimagining Church really helped me to see the unityof the body and the evils of being sectarian and divisive. I appreciate that you’ve taken a strong stand on your beliefs about how the church should operate and yet you are open to the whole body at the same time. This is a blessing.
Some 43 years ago, the first 2 1/2 years of my Christian life were spent in a Fundamentalist group in California. I was not raised “in the church,” so my first experience of “Christianity” was the little black-and-white world of these folks. There was a certain security in this realm, for we were in the “right” camp and everyone else was in the “wrong” camp. I remember being so judgmental — “They can’t be Christians because they went to a movie.”
Thankfully, after 2 1/2 years the Lord sent along some people who challenged me to think about “the system” I was in, and I began a journey moving in broader directions. However, not everyone gets help so quickly. I just received this “Help Needed” email from a sister in Norway, and have replied to her, I trust, with Christ’s balm.
“My name is M., and I am writing to you from Norway. Me and my husband
and some friends left an abusive church two years ago. And I guess that you
have heard similar stories as ours, so I am not going to bore you with
mine. But it does not exist a recovery website or a place to recover or any
kind of focus on this in Norway. I am struggling so much in certain areas
after this abuse.
I can not seem to open my Bible. Every time I do, I get sick. And it seems
like I am not able to hear the true Bible or the Scripture, I am just
hearing what they taught me. This has been going on for years. I do have
fellowship with God Father and with the friends that left, and we do grow in
Him. But I would so much love to be able to read the Bible again. Is this a
common problem that people are struggling with, after being in an abusive
church where they have twisted the Scriptures in order to make the
Congregation do what they want, or believe? I realize that I have been under
the faith-formula doctrine, and I have a hard time finding out what is
truth, and what is not. Anyone who can help? Articles, books, dvds or
podcasts?
Love, M.”
First off I just want to say darn it……..I missed the stupid question day! By the way for me “Sonic” Jalapeño Cheeseburger, Onion Rings and Cherry Limeade………had it today in fact!
Back to your post!
I read what 1ozmom said and just could not had said it any better……….the problem is we see it in others so easy….but never in ourselves.
Until it is really done to us… can we understand the damage….but as human we sometimes have short memories. We are all so guilty and it is not a one time thing in our lives to get out. I think till the day we take our last breathe we will have to fight that spirit that so easily wants to claims us all.
It sure doesn’t live in a building ..it lives in our lovely minds…………
Looking forward to reading the new book, as it sounds like it goes into these issues with much more depth.
PC was instrumental in providing the background and history which reinforced so many things which I had known “instinctively” for many years, but had not understood how it all fit together…
In regards to the matter of sectarianism, my wife and I have had the conviction that we’d never be advocates of a house/simple church having a name. Not that we think it’s evil to have one, just that it seems that the safest approach to identifying ourselves as followers of Christ, is to just leave it at that. It seems that when people start identifying themselves with certain groups, or teachers, (or authors…) then the seeds for exclusiveness have been planted.
I find myself burdened by the concern that those of us who have been edified greatly from books like PC can also fall prey to becoming a ‘clique’ of sorts. I have caught myself sometimes using PC as a sort of ‘barometer’ to gauge where other people stand in regards to church issues. A positive or negative appraisal of the book tells me a lot about that person, and I suppose I’m in danger of leaning to much on a book written by a person, instead of the book written by God! I appreciate you reading and responding to your blog comments, that kind of accessibility is a good example of the kinds of leadership that your book explains. Thanks.
No way have I every been elitist, sectarian or exclusive. Nope. Never ever. Not moi. 😛
Hey, that’s why it’s called a journey, right?
My wife and I have been in two groups as you have described. Of course, we never thought we were being sectarian or elitist when we were in the groups. Actually, that’s not totally true. The reason we left both groups is that we started to sense something from the Lord. To use Frank’s terminology, something started to “stink”!
It took longer for us to know this in the first group. That’s because we were much younger and new believers. But God in His mercy, began to show us something was wrong. That was over twenty two years ago now.
The second group was much more subtle in their “body odor”. Apparently, they used a little deodorant to cover it up a bit! But it eventually came out and we spotted it much quicker because of the first episode we had much earlier in our Christian lives.
Because of these two experiences, I have made up a slogan:
It’s not how they treat you when you join that counts. It’s how they treat you when you leave.
I appreciate the insightful comments.
What’s interesting to me is that over the last year there have been numerous people who have contacted me who have left sectarian and elitist movements. At the time, these people didn’t realize that this is what they were in. But after leaving, they’ve been treated quite horribly by those who have remained in them. Thus my opening comment that sectarianism, elitism, and exlusiveness are like body odor. It’s so true.
Referring to your story above, I love it when God speaks in such simple and even humorous ways!
“US ONLY”.
Isn’t this the mentality that God Himself saught to move beyond? First with Himself, then Adam, then Adam and Eve, then multiplication, then beyond the Jews and to the Gentiles, then beyond.
God is not a very ‘exclusive’ Person, is He?
In fact, when we look at Jesus’ company at the table, we see a pretty diverse bunch of people.
Granted, He did see them all as “ill” and in need of a Physician, but still, Jesus Himself wasn’t “too holy” to sit in the midst of a myriad of different minds.
The only ‘exclusivity’ that I think is right and proper for the church is for those who have been given “the cure”, those who are being treated by the Great Physician.
But even then, are we not called to then be little ‘physicians’, little vessels of ‘the Cure’ to be spread out and administered to a sick and dying world?
Good and most relevent post.
Thanks for lettin’ me rant a bit.
I’m with ya, man!
P.S. I added this site to my blogroll at 390days.com and will do so at prayeramedic.com as well. It’s the least I can to do help get the word out!
Thanks Mr. Viola! I look forward to reading the book soon! I bought “Pagan Christianity” on Saturday, and I’m almost a quarter of the way done with it already — I haven’t set it down. It’s amazing!
Great point! I saw your comments on the belief in the Trinity in your “What is Christianity?” post. I agree, why don’t people simply teach and instruct those who have been wrongly taught? The Trinity is something I’ve been confused about ever since I attended a United Pentecostal Church (UPC). They had my wife and I get re-baptized in Jesus’ name only, among other things. We eventually left the legalism we found in that congregation and now attend a non-denominational church.
I am in the process of reading “Pagan Christianity” right now and after that will read “Reimagining Church.” I maintain several blogs and I always write about what I learn as I read. The one thing I am struggling with is understanding the non-hierarchical leadership that house churches seem to call for. I respect it, and I certainly feel that the clergy/laity distinction is invalid, but I still see Scriptural support for organized leadership roles in the church. I wrote a post about this today entitled “Separation of Clergy and Laity?” I am really confused about this. I’d love it if someone could weigh in on the Scriptures I list in the post and explain this to me. It is at prayeramedic.com – I think my last comment with the direct link got caught by Akismet.
Thanks for what you do and teach!
Dan
Hi Dan. I only have a sec. but I did check out your blog. Your questions are answered in great detail in “Reimagining Church.” I look forward to your thoughts when you finish it. Thanks for the kind remarks as well 🙂
Frank
I love the phrase “radical inclusivity”. Makes me think of Jesus casting the demons out of the crazy, possessed, naked man in Gerasene. Then the man was immediately made an evangelist by Jesus. I love it!